Nevertheless, I come down (pardon the pun) on Willow being technically bi because her vampire self was so clearly in love with Xander (as well as getting a kick out of torturing Angel--as did Xander, but that's another story).

Still, its all technical because Willow's totally and absolutely in love with Tara!

And anyway, methinks "homosexual" "heterosexual" and "bisexual" are just shorthand for a much more complex phenomonan.

Unclicking soapbox icon now...

I think you can be straight and attracted to a girl (or guy) or lesbian and find a guy (or girl...sorry, writing this from a girl's perspective) I mean, I can drool over David Boreanaz but I'm first in line to admit that Amber is a hottie! hehe.

But I have to say that I think Willow is Bi, only because otherwise it completely screws over her relationship with Oz...I really liked them together (not quite as much as our girls though!) and I think that saying she's gay is almost saying "Oz was an experiment"

And about Dracula, that scene was to show that Willow was bi but I think that after awhile Joss decided that he didn't want to go with that, he wanted Willow gay, so since Triangle, Willow has been gay gay gay

Tasha...why would you think that Willow being gay now invalidates her relationship with Oz?
Like Zahir said, many lesbians have had relationships with men and they were truly in love with those men but once they found that "special woman" it made them realize that they were gay but that doesn't mean that they didn't really love the men they were with before, it's just that now they know they're gay.
For me Willow being gay now instead of bi doesn't take away anything from her feelings for Oz at the time she was with him.

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited May 26, 2001).]

Hmmmm...the way you put that got me thinking...I think Joss is smart enough to notice something like that. I mean, those 2 are in the same season after all, and I'm sure they go through them 100x to make sure all the episodes are consistant in what he wants to portray.

About Dracula, I think there are men that are sexy and dreamy and I still don't want to sleep with them, but I don't think that was the point of that. I think the point of that and the point of April the robot is that Tara is very capable of that nasty jealousy bug. It was a build up to their fight in Tough Love. If the fight in tough love doesn't convince you that Willow thinks of herself as gay, I really don't know what will. She basically is so angry that Tara would even think that it's a temporary condition for her and that she's heading back to boy's town. She's seriously irked because Tara doesn't think she has enough lesbo street cred to be considered a lesbian. Sad most people still don't believe her either. She wants a little respect and I am willing to give it to her. She says over and over she's gay, she's gay.

Semi-spoiler

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....still a sweet spot in her heart for Xander.

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Smart girls are so sexy! Xander talking of Anya (of all people!).
You couldn't have figured that out in 10th grade? Willow in reply.....

I'm siding with those who say Willow is gay because Willow says she's gay. You and I and half the western world can judge what we think she is based upon what we've seen and by our standards. Willow is the only one inside her own skin. Just because it's fictional skin that doesn't mean it isn't real. If Willow says she's gay, then for my money she's gay.

And I just knew that sooner or later someone was going to take that "You couldn't have figured that out in the tenth grade?" comment and use it to imply that Willow was bi and/or still had a thing for Xander. Personally, I took it more to be Willow simply reflecting on days gone by with an old friend.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

The fact that Willow said she would take care of Tara, even if she never gets better shows me the depth of her feelings. This is not a crush, experimentation or infatuation. These are two girls in serious love.

It seems to me that Willow's comment to Xander about 10th grade was one of those "witty between friend comments" you say when opportunity knocks. I took it as a humor moment between two long term friends who have a history together.

"I just know she likes Willow; and she already has one of those."
Xander, "Family"

quote:

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Originally posted by Lijdrec:
Willow is quite obviously a bi-sexual character, but very much in love with Tara (Gay now!). Love is the operative word here not her sexuality. But Willow ........

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Mmm, well, except no. That is to say, if Willow verbally self identifies as gay...I'm not sure there's much use in trying to insist on someone's sexuality from the outside. I have friends who claim to be gay, though they've never actually formed a relationship with someone of the same gender. But they're my friends, and so I respect their own take on themselves. I figure, unless they're very, very messed up, and in a ridiculous level of denial, they probably have more say in what they are than I do.

So, on a certain level, I don't think it's very fair to Willow (and to the writers of Willow) to say "Well, sorry, I deem Willow to be bi, your feelings in the matter don't count. No, she can't notice a guy is cute, that makes her bi. (For example, Buffy has noticed Willow is cute...I really don't think Buffy is supposed to be bi on the show) And Oz is going to count for the rest of your life. He's a guy, you were with him, no gayness for you."

Willow says she's gay. She's said it three or four different times now. I don't think she's ever said she's bi.

At some point, especially as she continues to be involved sexually and emotionally with Tara, I have to take her at her word.

quote:

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....still a sweet spot in her heart for Xander.

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Does Willow have feelings of fondness/ruefulness/irony that her old high school crush and friend finally, (and several years too late), "gets" that smart is sexy? Sure.

But keep in mind, they recently devoted most of an episode (Triangle) to laying the idea of Willow still having any romantic feelings for Xander to rest.

I am so pissed that I missed that. I must have got home from school, ran to the TV, turned it on, and just missed that. AHHHH!!!

quote:

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WILLOW
(vulnerable)
I think you're being pretty clear. It isn't the witch thing -- this is about the other changes in my life.

TARA
I trust you. I just... I don't know where I'm gonna fit in. In your life, when --

WILLOW
When I 'change back'? Yeah, this is just a college thing, just a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?

She is pretty confrontational here. Even Tara is surprised that she meets it halfway:

TARA
Should I?

Beat. Bitter.

WILLOW
You know, I'm really sorry I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. But you're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you possibly take me seriously?

---

I'd say that makes it pretty clear how Willow feels about herself.

quote:

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Originally posted by Him:
>>About my thoughts on what Willow's sexuality is, I'm basing it on what the writers went out of their way to show us

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The problem is, Drac had the whole compelling thrall thing. That was his character's "schtick" as t were. It ensnared Buffy, even though she tried to fight it and deny it. It ensnared Xander, even though Xander hates vampires. Willow reacted more mildly to it than either of them...I just don't see what this "Bi door" they're "leaving open" is, in light of Willow's repeated statements to the contrary, and especially the fight scene.

-len

quote:

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Originally posted by Him:

About my thoughts on what Willow's sexuality is, I'm basing it on what the writers went out of their way to show us. I WANT TO SEE THAT FIGHT SCENE AHHH!!! ...I'm back. Anyway, it seems they may be leaving that bi door open just in case Amber gets a movie career and leaves the show, who knows? Gay or Bi, she's still the best. w00t!

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They went out of their way to show that she is gay, not that you'd have to go out of your way to see that. Unless you *want* her to be bi that is.

Oh yeah she is the best, as is Tara, they are perfect together. And that is how they will stay. Sorry boys.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited May 27, 2001).]

Some people believe that people have an orientation spectrum that can be graphed out. Say that maybe you are 50%/50% attracted to men and women. Maybe you would be considered bi. You may be 95% attracted to women and 5% attracted to men and be considered a lesbian. That isn't to preclude you from having a relationship with a man (that 5%) but that your orientation is as a lesbian. Oz could have been a 50% or a 5% category.

Other people would argue that such terms cannot be applied across your whole life. Gay or straight are terms of the moment. Willow was straight but is now gay and the future is unknown.

Still others would say that people have a firm orientation and that some are straight, some are gay, and some have double the chances for a date on Saturday night. It does take time to sort out what one's actual orientation is however, and may have a period of experimentation before sorting things out. It could be that Willow dated Oz before she realized she was gay but now that she has realized she is gay, is done with her experimentation.

If Willow were an actual person I knew, I would not presume she believes any one of the alternatives I outlined above. I would assume whatever she told me. If she said gay, I would see her as gay. If she told me something different later, I would believe that also. For my real life, it is too hard to question people on exactly what they mean. I just accept what they tell me and Willow has been abundently clear in my mind.

Labels are confining, silly, and mostly irrelevant. I hesitate to put labels on anyone else; it makes me feel judgmental. Technically from what we've seen of Willow's relationship history, one might be tempted to call her bi, but I happen to fall into that "dated a guy or two once and it was nice, but decided it really wasn't my thing" category myself. Were I to label myself, I don't think it would be as bi. So I wouldn't assume to impose that term upon her, either.

But anyway, the defining of Willow's sexuality is something I'd leave entirely up to Willow herself. If she says she's gay, then I'll work with that.

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"Willow? I got so lost . . ."
"I found you. I will always find you."
-- Tara and Willow, "The Gift"

I'm going to also agree with the people who say that Willow is gay because she said it herself plush we have quite a few examples of stuff that the writers have put in to make us realise that Will is gay and not bi.

For example;

Willow: Hello, gay now! Triangle

TARA: I just hope she finds him.
XANDER: Somehow I don't think a girl that looks like that's gonna be lonely for too long.
WILLOW: Definitely not.

Willow grins and nods, then notices Tara, who frowns and folds her arms. IWMTLY

Will making a pass at another girl.

And then there's Forever, (this ain't a biggie but i kinda think it counts) and the "little boobs" line.

I think the thing with Drac was just pure and simple Thrall.

Just my opinion though

quote:

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Originally posted by Shewolf:
In an ideal world there wouldn't be labels like gay, straight, bi, and people would just fall in love-or lust- with the person.

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I couldn't agree more. And I think that in that scene from Tough Love, Willow is saying exactly that. It doesn't matter the label. She's in love with Tara. She doesn't need a "lesbo street cred" to prove she's in love with a (wonderful and beautiful) woman. She knows she is. When we're in love, we shouldn't have to worry about labels.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ginner:
*Takes in what Thespia has just said and begins to cry*

That was *sob* beautiful *sob* ...and i couldn't *sob* agree *sob* more *sob* *sniff*

---

*Hurries to get a kleenex, fast*

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She practically had "Genuine Molded Plastic" stamped on her ass.
Just tryin' a little spicy-talk.

I believe that Joss didn't really want to label her, initially, but felt that he had to in order to answer those who declaimed W/T as nothing more than experimentation. Anyone know anymore on this?

Oh, and I don't think I've ever admired Tara more than when she said, "Should I?" It would have been so much easier for her to back down, or to simply mumble something noncommittal, but came out and said it (pretty forcefully, too). She was brave enough to express her fear - however misguided (though natural and understandable) the fear was. Thus proving she doesn't just let Willow take the lead all the time. She's her own person, with her own issues and insecurities and needs.

Not sure if that makes any sense to anyone, and aware that I've rambled off the point rather, but that's what I think

Willow is obviously the only person who could answer this question, and 'Tough Love' made it pretty clear that she does understand herself and her feelings. I also believe that the only reason she was attracted to Dracula was because of his dark-come-to-me-mojo.

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

The Junky...I prefer the term 'Romantasexual' myself!!!

Now admittedly, people are a lot more complex than food. Nonetheless, this holds true for us...how on earth could we talk about ourselves if we didn't use labels? As an example, Bob would likely describe himself as a racing enthusiast. That's a label. If labels didn't exist, we'd probably be wondering why the hell there are pictures of race cars in the daily thread. I'm a bass guitar player, that's another label, and one that came in very handy when I was looking to join a band...I know I'm stretching a bit here but do you see my point?

The problem is not labels. The problem is the prejudices that arise from these labels. Generally the only labels that people get uptight about--and understandably so--are the ones that come with powerful negative prejudices attached. No one's likely to oppress Bob for being a racing enthusiast, or commit a hate crime against me for being a bassist...you start talking about labels like black or Jewish or gay, and it's a different story.

My point is, don't fight labels. Fight prejudice. If we can make being gay as acceptable as, um...collecting stamps or something, then the word gay will be as innocuous as the word..what is it, philatelist? Just one more way of signifying who we are to our fellow human beings.

Willow is GAY. She is a beautiful intelligent woman in passionate love with another beautiful intelligent woman. They are wonderful human beings and they are happy together. That is their label, or what it has given them anyway, and darn it, I wish it was mine as well.

And being awake for 27 hours and being Dutch isn't improving my powers of expression, nor my typing skills. *sigh*

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited May 28, 2001).]

I totally sympathise with people not liking labels or anything, but in the end, you have to identify yourself with some part of society. And right now, when it counts, Willow identifies herself as gay. It's good enough for me that she says it, does it, acts it and shows it with or without Tara. I don't ask for any more than for them to be happy together, being what they are.

Gay as stick...(never did find out what that means exactly...)

Because bonking the same sex just sickens me. It is like telling me to be a necrophiliac, I just can't, it doesn't feel right. I know, it's all a mental thing, but this mental thing is pretty strong on my part. Bonk whomever you wish, just don't bonk me if you're my gender.

Sigh. Makes you wonder sometimes. I'm sorry Him, but you haven't made yourself welcome here at all with this kind of rant.

Labels are important. I am a lesbian. I claim that label and it is empowering. It ties me to people like Da Vinci, Elanor Roosevelt, Plato. It gives me a community of people who have similar experiences to mine, a group where I belong. It is as important a thing that defines me as my ethnicity, as my home town and home state, as my height and weight and skin color. It surely isn't everything I am but it describes an important part of me.

When Willow says that she is gay, she is claiming that heritage, that community, those shared experiences. She is defining a part of who she is, labeling herself. She is making a statement to herself and to the larger world about how she wants to live her life and what is inside her.

As Dazey also noted, it isn't the fact that you claim the label that is problematic. It is how people react. There are two reactions that are problematic.

One is when people treat me poorly because of this label. Enough said on this topic. The second, and equally problematic, is when people want to ignore that I am a lesbian, in some attempt to treat me just like everyone else. Unfortunately, I am not like everyone else. Dismissing this fact about me dismisses a really big part of who I am.

edited to add: Some labels are very limiting, but if you are proud of who you are it shouldn't matter. What matters is that you,want, and embrace that label because it is who you are and this is who I Am.

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WILLOW:
...I'd totally be blowing off classes if I was in Dawnie's shoes.

TARA:
Sweetie, you wouldn't blow off class if your head was on fire.

-Amy