Now for a couple of questions xita asked, about the two wildfeed reviews…

Did W/T act weird around Dawn after finding out she is the key…not really, more like uncomfortable, right after Tara mentioned the key, with Dawn standing right there, then both W/T were a little uncomfortable.

Did W/T do the teleportation spell or just Willow…they both did the spell together.

And the scene with Buffy and W/T talking about birthdays w/o boyfriends went like this…
B-maybe it’s time to start a new tradition…birthdays w/o boyfriends, it could be just as much fun
W-preaching to the choir here baby
T-yeah, some of my best…then she saw Dawn with the knife and the bloody hand.

At the beginning, Willow was talking about Buffy’s birthday, she said she use to be afraid of those candles you put on birthday cakes that don’t blow out and Tara said she use to be too…ahhhh

thanks for the info!
do we need spoiler space in an eppie discussion thread?

4

3

2

1

And now it makes sense, some of my best birthdays... etc. We all know about Family don't we!

BUFFY 5.13 FAQ

WHAT’S IT CALLED?
“Blood Ties.”

WHO’S RESPONSIBLE?
Teleplay is credited to Steven S. DeKnight, who appears to be a newcomer to Team Whedon.

WHAT DOES TV GUIDE SAY?
“Dawn’s entire world crumbles around her after she learns that she is the Key – and dealing with the truth proves even harder than anyone had anticipated when she runs away.”

SUCKOMETRIC READINGS?
Virtually suck-free! 5.13 is an agreeably plotty installment with some fairly moving Dawn material. The only downside is the complete absence of laugh-out-loud comedy-genius dialogue like “Hello! Gay now!” and “Willow’s a demon?”

THE BIG NEWS?
In the episode’s big jump-out-of-your-seat what-the-hell-was-that? scene, we learn in highly dramatic fashion the true nature of Ben the Evil Intern!

DO WE LEARN BEN’S TRUE RELATIONSHIP WITH GLORY?
At least one important aspect of it! And while Ben and Glory may in fact be brother and sister, we learn that that share a far more intimate connection! Ew!

DOES BEN LEAD THE KNIGHTS WHO SAY “KEY!”?
Uncertain. He knows who they are, but he seems to be caught off-guard by their sudden appearance in Sunnydale.

IS BEN TRULY EVIL?
Well, yeah. He did, after all, summon that queller demon to snack on Joyce a while ago.

ARE THE WATCHERS STILL LURKING ABOUT? HAVE THEY BEEN REDUCED TO RUNNING ERRANDS FOR WILLOW AND TIDYING JOYCE’S KITCHEN?
Sadly, they have not! The watchers, in fact, have no on-screen role in this episode, having been shooed back to their sad little island by Giles and the slayer.

IF DAWN LEARNS SHE’S THE KEY, DO THE SCOOBS LEARN AS WELL?
Yes. Willow, Xander, Tara and Anya all get the news minutes before Dawn.

IS SPIKE STILL PROTECTING THE SUMMERS GIRLS IN THE SPIKECRYPT?
No! Joyce, Dawn and Spike all begin the episode in their respective homes. Was Spike just an interim solution while Buffy dealt with the watchers? Or did watcher research suggest Spike would make one crappy protector?

DO WE LEARN MORE OF GLORY?
We do.

WHAT KIND OF GOD IS SHE? SUMARIAN?
Giles relates that, according to council research, “Glory and two of her fellow hell-gods ruled over one of the more seriously unpleasant demon dimensions.”

IS GLORY SEEN THIS WEEK?
Yes. And she has more dreggy minions than ever!

IS BUFFY STILL HEARTSICK?
A bit. She gets a bit pouty when her 20th birthday comes and no greeting card with a Latin American postmark appears.

TELL US HOW TO SQUANDER OUR TUESDAYS, O HERCULES!
The WB’s “Buffy” at 8:00, the WB’s “Angel” at 9:00, and MTV’s “Road Rules/Real World Challenge” at 10:00. Tape ABC’s “The Mole” at 8:00 and Fox’s “Dark Angel” at 9:00. Buy a second VCR and tape Fox Family’s 2-hour “Freaks & Geeks” block at 8:00.

this is going to be a wonderful ep. especially the tara bending over part. (jk)

roses are red
violets are blue
i saw tara bend over
and i thought of you

Ben is Glory and Glory is Ben... when Ben told the minion "you know that Glory can't kill me" i was wondering...what is he a god? and i was right! so Glory and Ben is one and the same... hmmmm interesting... but it seems Ben is the good one and Glory is evil... so is the "key!" so if the monks had turned 'the key' into a human being, then there is a possibility that 'it' will eventually become 'good?' i know it sounds kinda confusing but that's what i'm thinkin' rt now after watching it.

now when Willow and Tara did that spell... i was like... finally, they're *doing a spell together!* but it seems Willow's energy to cast that spell has left her weak (which caused the nose bleed) but Tara didn't even feel a slight tinge of weakness. does that mean Tara's more powerful coz it didn't drain her energy unlike Willow? or Willow's more into it than Tara? but Willow was the one who said the final word that eventually led Glory to another place/dimension (in the sky) and it was a very powerful spell so probably that caused her to lose energy.

having Dawn feel the way she did was just too emotional! i felt her pain! it was devastating! now her finding out she's not 'human' coincides with the Passions' storyline... (sorry kinda OT) coz it's the almost the same story as Ethan Crane, finding out he's not a Crane but a Bennett! imagine both their despair and denial after finding this out!? what horror they must be feeling! ugh! Dawn trashing her room is naturally acceptable!

ramblings over. bad me, too long... peace.

quote:

---

Originally posted by april:
a poem for xita:

roses are red
violets are blue
i saw tara bend over
and i thought of you

---

rotflmao

Ciao -
ºAshleyº

I liked the way that buffy 'listened' to willows concern about them not being made aware of what the key was (and it was clear it was buf reacting to willows criticisms as opposed to xanders that moved her). Instead of making excuses, she took responsibity and gave them the information on dawn.

interesting birthday party. taras comments about some of her best birthdays
being boyfriendless was stated in the "pleural' as opposed to her last birthday or her best birthday. which could mean she has had birthdays with boyfriends and or birthdays with other girl friends?

I thought the dawn melodrama was ok but could have been better. buffy had being the chosen one whose duty was pushed on her when she was 15 with no help from her friends and family, and buffy still isn't clear on where her power comes from or who she really is . this would have made a fine touch stone to use in relating to her sisters angst over learning she is more or perhaps less than she seems. why didn't they work the "the summers girls" are unique thing?

as for our god of chaos glory, so now we know her human form limits her power and she is one of 3 gods who ruled a dimension of hell. ok so is she one god and ben another and the third is still back home ruling?

The first crazy people got quelled back in the 12th century and thats about when the monks hid the key (which is almost as old as glory which is forever) so has glory been stuck here since the 12th century? with the knights chasing her and ben since then to sever the link and keep her from coming or returning to hell?

as for ben and glory, ok they are brother and sister. ben drives glory crazy and glory needs brain energy to keep sane. they can't hurt each other because they can't exist in this earthly dimension at the same time. they flip back and forth displacing each other and their knowledge is seperate. so where does ben go when glory is here, back to hell? are they one god with two personas or two gods sharing one access point to earth? ben wants to keep glory from the key but why. so as not to go back to hell himself?

then there's spike who actually gets through to buffy tonight and gets her to really talk to him even apologize of sorts to him, not to mention he helps

and the big fight, well kind of dumb to try and take out a god with an arrow or a crow bar. good thing willow and tara had a trick in their bags. blue jeans seems to have become willows uniform for demon hunting and my goodness anyone else notice that everyone got beat up, knocked down or bloodied EXCEPT tara.

while it was nice that buffy and dawn bonded and tara ran to willow, I was kind of disappointed tara just touched willows arm/shoulder as opposed to helping her to a seated position and wrapping an arm around her and supporting Willow. a warmer demonstration of concern and affection would have been nice

also thought it kind of cold that buffy would leave the recovering scoobies with out so much as a 'thanks and oh are you guys ok' and just walk off with dawn

granted mom was worried but her friends are bleeding after almost getting killed

a thanks guys would have been nice

I was shocked when I saw Ben transform into Glory. It appears that they are one entity, except that the good and evil parts of their nature can't co-exist at the same time. When each comes to the fore it is manifested in a diferent form: the good being Ben, the evil Glory. Basically a God with a split personality.

This was the 3rd great ep in a row, i hope this trend continues! I was very pleased that this one continued what was started in the previous 2 by carying through on the promise of the gang coming back together this year. Everyone was working together so nicely that it seemed like vintage BTVS, except better because now there's Tara.

Speaking of which, I loved the fresh pleasure of hearing/seeing the "preaching to the choir" line while watching the episode. The spoiler-free life has some distinct advantages.

I am not convinced that Ben=Glory and Ben=Good and Glory=Evil. I suspect a more complicated (familial?) triangle/nexus of Ben/The Key/Glory. I found it interesting that Dawn lied to Buffy about Ben (a friend I watched with scoffed and said Dawn really couldn't remember but she has not resided in the Buffyverse for long). The effect of Ben switching to Glory was great.

I loved how they portrayed Dawn's pain and the murky questions they raise through this storyline -- what makes a family, how much identity is knit up with memory/history/recognition (which makes me think of Gertrude Stein's "Identity is recognition, you know who you are because you and others remember..."), what the hell constitutes love anyway, etc. I also liked how they highlight allegorically that awful time in your adolescence when you question reality/self; you feel unreal and awkward in the flesh you haven't completely grown into. (And on the most obvious level it was drawing from child finds out she's adopted narrative but I think it explores lots of other juicy themes too). Of course, with Dawn the confusion and despair are fixed in a very real situation.

Anyway I liked this episode. I know I have some quibbly quibbles I can't remember because I am caught up in the high of having watched unspoiled...

EDITED TO ADD:

Darin, ROFLMAO at your little code.

I've always kind of liked Dawn. She's just
witty enough to make her amusing and interesting, but also has a touch of that studiousness/seriousness that Willow and Tara
have.

Michelle is one terrific little actress. Can you believe she's only 15?

Nice touch - after Spike confronted Buffy,
notice he was included in on the Scooby action in searching for Dawn.

My theory on Glory and Ben: originally they were seperate entities, but somehow they got meshed into one. Hence the antagonism and the fact that they both *know* this. Perhaps Dawn is the thing that will split them into
two, bringing one of the demon dimensions into the world, and that Ben keeping Dawn away from Glory is the only way he can keep
control of her. I also kind of think that maybe Ben's control over Glory or whatever the thing that meshed them together also brought them to human form, and when the key
seperates them, she'll be back to her original badness.

Oh, and on a side note, Angel was soooo boring, and it was so lame to hear him tell
the karaoke host exactly what he was thinking! A) It's obvious and B) Lame plot device. However ----

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Heard in an upcoming episode that Angel does the nasty with Darla - yet doesn't lose his soul, and it brings him back to the gang. Sounds interesting.

------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

After seeing the bendover thing (gleefully) pointed out here at least three times, so much for better judgment.

42kb

Rest of vidcaps at http://www.deaddogparty.com/alybt.html
(don't give out URL to spoiler-free folks)

-- Nick

[This message has been edited by Dead Dog (edited February 07, 2001).]

it was...ok. not great, not bad. the ep seemed a little off to me, i cant put my finger on why however. also in the first few scenes xander seemed a little off to me, maybe nic was having a bad day. or maybe its me and my imagination. *shrug*

im glad the knights were dealt with again this episode, i was sincerely fearing that the story would gloss over them for a few eps and suddenly bring them back. i enjoyed the minion's ant analogy, the thought of strong, willful men being perceived akin to ants makes me smile =P

best of the ep for me was dawn! i am very, very attatched to her now and throughout the whole episode i sort of forgot about everyone else (i even missed the tara bending over during my first viewing!) and just worried over my little dawnie ;.;

Judy, even spoiled this ep rocked the house. It's been a long time since the season long arc actually had some excitement. Joss promised a lot of things and it looks like he's finally coming through. He promised the scoobs would interact more with the big baddies. Delivering now. Also, the theme of family. Judy I agree. Between, Tara/Willow and Buffy/Dawn/Joyce Ben/Glory and the scoobies, the theme is finally being expanded. Also, I agree, the pain of teenagedom often bring this feeling of not belonging, and a questioning of reality. This is another metaphor that is def. working. I have loved Michelle T's work this season, but she was amazing today.

Little comments:

I like your explanation Warduke. Some of my best memories.

Hey I liked Xander's hair. It looked longer for sure. And I like Willow's hair (ducks from the flying objects).

When Willow hugged Buffy goodbye after the party, she looked so much taller. LIke a giant.

What was with all the t-shirts. Dawn's, Little miss what??? Willow's, cowboy cutie? Is she wrapped up in the Madonna fad?

And lastly, I bet you didn't notice, Tara held Willow's finger in their last scene together. Very cute! I loved all the little rubbing there at the end. More would have been better but it's better than when they cut it out of triangle.

Deaddog you did it man! I knew someone would! (adrienne!). It's not your fault, obviously it was set up that way. NOtice Willow's apparent position he he. Yay Nick!

Edited to add, yes that dress they gave her was oogie. Was the the Eiffel Tower on it?

When I saw the "previously on" segment, I thought, oh my god, how many storylines are they going to try to tie together here? Fun. And during the whole Ben/Glory thing, we all yelled out -- awww, Fight Club. Kinda cool, kinda fun.

I'm not so big on the Knight dudes but like all the rest of it. Joss has finally giving us the rewards of an intrically thought out little story arc. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. I have my theories...

Other notes, Willow's hair isn't bugging me. Star t-shirt, ick. Xander's hair bugs me more every time I see it. Long and greasy. I'm sorry, I know the Xander fans will hate me but I just don't like it. And I like Xander and love long hair on boys, just not that icky looking long hair.

Oh, and Buffy and Dawn both got in some major cry moments tonight.

Did anyone else think Spike kind of looked older tonight, like he hadn't been sleeping much?

quote:

---

Originally posted by xita:

Darin, I have no idea who you could be possibly thinking of. I have no clue. Anyone?? It's not like I would ever fixate on posteriors. Hmm me??? no. Me? no.

---

*sigh* so you have no idea? Well, let me spell it out for you, in case anyone missed Darin's post there...

XITA *loves* the ASS sweep...

There now...any other questions?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Isolde:

You know, it bugs me that for such a great episode, little things never fail to catch my attention. When Spike was talking to Dawn (right before they headed to the magic box), every time he spoke, clouds of breath came out of his mouth. I thought it was pretty well established in the Buffyverse that vampires don't breathe? Why did that have to happen in such a great episode?

---

Well, I don't want you to feel bugged, so I have an explanation that will hopefully be satisfactory. True, vampires do not *need* to breath, but that doesn't mean that they *can't* (I am betting Spike inhales when he smokes). In order to speak they need to breath to get them vocal cords moving. And eventhough Spike is not warmblooded, I am sure he is warmer than the outside temperature, so the air he exhales will come out in little clouds if it were cold enough outside.

Editing to add: Dead Dog thanks for the cap! I've had this scene described to me in perfect detail, but seeing is believing they say.
April, you are brilliant! Lol, you are a poet at heart.

So, I'm completely thrilled with this episode..the Dawn arch was F&*king amazing! T/W doing not 1, but 2!! spells was really nice to see. Anya, again, wins for the funniest scenes/lines in the epp. Glory..oh my goddess..lovin' her hardcore..

But, I have a couple observations:

--Did you notice how Dawn didn't know where Ben went or that he even morphed into Glory? Do you think he did something to her memory about it?
--With Ben-->Glory thing..do you think they were split when they left their world and the key puts them back together? That's why Ben was freaking out..

Oh..and, I had to explain the past 5 seasons to my gf last night during this epp. so, I missed the tara ass-shot... thank god for vcrs.

-S

I'm almost giddy that I got the script for Blood Ties posted this morning! I'm pressed for time, so I haven't read this thread yet, but I wanted to let you know that it was up... and there is the sweetest Tara/Willow scene in Act 3 that was cut (at least I think it was cut... a friend came over last night *during Buffy* - which is a big no-no - so I couldn't give the show my full attention).

"
Birthday presents are strewn across the coffee table, some weapons, some clothes, a few books…

"EXT. WOODS - NIGHT

Willow and Tara are searching the woods at the edge of town. Willow scans the night.

WILLOW
Maybe - maybe that way.

TARA
(gently)
We looked that way. And this way, and
the other way. She's not out here.

Willow sags, knowing she's right.

WILLOW
Where would you go? If you felt lost
and alone? Where would you go?

TARA
(a beat)
To you.

Willow takes Tara in her arms and hugs her tight.

"

Alright then. I admit that by request a few months ago I cobbled together a handful of Willow behind shots. They're not very good. But they're mysteriously still hidden on my site (no link from main page).

xita said: >> NOtice Willow's apparent position he he<<

I went frame by frame looking for an open hand that would make the suggestion more than obvious, but alas it was not to be.

And um, upon further review, the Tara bendover scene individual frames are far more interesting than I first thought, but I won't post them unless someone wants them. It's about 8 frames. Unfortunately I can't make mpegs -- they never work, I'm still learning.

--Spike was smoking. That alone would have warmed his lungs, and he'd have to breathe to speak.
--Willow was the one who actually activated the spell, so felt the backlash (methinks maybe if she and Tara had spoken together they'd both've felt a lesser reaction).
--Anybody else wanna see Ben "wake up" wearing a slinky red number and pumps?
--I'm assuming Ben and Glory really are the same entity (a side effect of dwelling in this reality). Sooooo...what about the other two Hellgods?
--My hasn't Buffy grown? This is such a difference from all the whining she did for the first three and a half seasons!
--Anya does try, doesn't she? BTW, Buffy was right about everybody acting weird around Dawn once they Knew. Glory didn't notice but Dawn herself did.
--Spike bonding (kinda) with Dawn. Snerk.

Actually saw it Tuesday for once... I took a chance on my VCR 'cuz I didn't want to wait till Saturday and be out of the loop. Very glad I did.

On the Willow-collapsing-after-casting: I think it was that she gave the final word that did it. Though Tara was right with it through the chanting and sprinkly-tossing, Willow gave that 'activating' word. They might have done it together, but I think Tara may have been distracted/thrown off by Glory's nasty comments and that, for the first time in the fight, she'd realized that thes two chanting girls were doing something. Wills just had the foresight to remember, 'hey, I'd better teleport her while I can'. My take on it, anyway.

I gotta say, the Ben-into-Glory bit just knocked me flat. I was expecting acknowledgement of a familial relationship (and got it... "I have a sister too..."), but the direct swap was just a Keanu Reeves-style 'whoa' moment.

Oh, and anyone think Glory looks just so cute in Ben's scrubs? Okay, just me...

------------------
Kalita
Maquis operative and fanfic sponge

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
I was kind of disappointed tara just touched willows arm/shoulder as opposed to helping her to a seated position and wrapping an arm around her and supporting Willow. a warmer demonstration of concern and affection would have been nice

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zahir:
Anybody else wanna see Ben "wake up" wearing a slinky red number and pumps?

---

and did anyone else find it "curious" that Ben did already have a slinky red dress and heels in his hospital locker gotta wonder about that guy. hehe

But my take on the final spell, as other's have said - Willow provided the final energy to cast the spell and teleport glory. So she got the backlash. The way i see it coming down is the W/T angsty bits will be willow's witchy powers going too far. maybe she lands in a coma again? and tara has to worry about losing her forever? Brings back the Restless comments about tara not being able to help willow at some point. Do you think willow is tapping secretly into darker powers for her more powerful spell, but others aren't realizing this? hmm. hard to believe tara or giles wouldn't know. or even anya when she's paying attention...

quote:

---

Originally posted by tommo:

Ok then, so when I meet Amber at Nocturnal this year, I'll say to her "And can you just bend over so I can take a picture and post it on the kitty board? Gee thanks Miss Benson..."

---

ROFLMAO!!! Ruth, I swear you are trying to kill me aren't you??? Well forget it! I *am* coming to bloody England in june, and not just with the idle hope of seeing Amber. I want to meet Drusilla as well now...

------------------

"Hello! Tarasexual now..."

quote:

---

Originally posted by darvangi:

Judy: I was being very serious. I would have gone into a sugar coma if they would have left that syrupy scene in. And I am also very serious about needing to see some good drama in the W/T relationship; maybe some jealousy or some kind of force that separates them so they have to struggle to stay together. It would serve to keep the 'ship exciting and also to let them display how much love they have for each other without the corny sentimentality.

---

Darin, I think I'm in love with you. And I'm not being sarcastic. I completely agree with you. I think some of the corny sentimentality arises from the restrictions they are dealing with. But it just doesn't do anything for me except make me queasy.

While FAMILY did have good conflict and drama, I want something more internal (not an outside force). I know I probably sound unappealingly cynical for this board, but while I do believe in the ecstasy and wonder of love (although I do NOT believe in The One) it's more interesting to also see the flaws, the ugliness, the contradictions. Yes, it's TV. Yes, it's fantasy. But BUFFY has always dove right into the dark and illogical messiness of being human. We've seen it with most of the romantic relationships. As much as I love, respect, and support the writers for taking care not to stigmatize the W/T relationship or rehearse tired old stereotypes about lesbians, sometimes I think the protectiveness stifles creativity and growth. I am going to have a really hard time believing in the relationship if it continues to consist of idealized girl-girl tenderness.

EDITED TO SAY:

I realize that I may have given the impression that I want no sweet tender moments between W/T. I have liked most of them, but I have now reached a plateau.

And Darin, I thought you were being sarcastic because I know my view on this is the distinct minority around these parts. That's fine, but it makes me a bit twitchy. So don't go to any remedial posting board writing workshops, please. I've always liked your posts.

RE: W/T cut scenes - very annoying! There's no justification for the candle/finger-licking good substitution, but I can see why they'd cut the Woodsy scene for time and leave in the X/G banter.

The X/G scene added some humor to what was in essence a very heavy ep (teen angst, cutting, etc.).

While I would have loved the extra syrup of W/T in the woods, I can see that it had no direct bearing on the plot.

RE: Spike breath - one of those occasional, unavoidable production thingies; cold ext. shoot = breath misties. Kinda like the accidental Spike reflection in the glass doors in WTWTA.

RE: Glory and Ben - Nice back Clare...Very nice back;~) Purrrrrr....What was the question?*G*

RE: Tara bending over - keep them screencaps a-coming, Nick! I also saw potential naughtiness in Willow's hand position:~)

RE: Teleportation spell - Putting myself on the stand as an expert witness; if two or more people are casting a spell, they share the energies as the "cone of power" builds. If all/both say speak or perform the catalyst for the spell, the focus of directing the energy is shared. If, in Willow's case, one person activates the magicks they get the brunt of it as the only channel for said energies.

No, I can't teleport gods;~)

Anyone else have the picture of Tara catching Wiilow trying the teleportation spell on Miss Kitty Fantastico?

Those 8 vidcaps I mentioned are at: http://www.deaddogparty.com/amberbt.html
Thumbnailed page.

------------------
Sabrina Luv

Just let me be, I will be fine in a post or two...

Duh, I just saw them! YEAH! Thanks nick! Expect wallpaper folks

The dance was nice but they still haven't kissed on screen and half the eppies this season made me wonder if they hadn't decided to just be friends rather than lovers afterall.

words are nice but I need pictures to believe

so I'd rather the writers work on making me feel like they are really a couple head over heals in love with each other, before they start messing with them.

****

Whew! I finally get enough of a break from quelling the rumor-insanity among my minions (see my rant on another thread) to comment on the episode.

And what did I think? It was GREAT! I've never seen Michelle Trachtenberg do anything really dramatic before, and she was fantastic. I like how Spike has bonded to her, too. Do you suppose he started calling her "niblet" while they were staying at his place?

Another thing I liked was that we once againn had Joss using the supernatural horror as a metaphor for a real horror. How many teenagers haven't had a moment where everything seemed like a sham and they didn't know who or what they really were? Dawn just has a more tangible source for her problems, that's all.

There were some good Willow/Buffy moments in this ep. In the beginning, Buffy was trying to rationalize her keeping Dawn's identity a secret as she has rationalized things in the past, and all it took was one look from Willow to make her realize she was wrong. There were good W/B moments at the birthday party, too, right up to the hug as Willow and Tara left.

And of course there were good W/T moments. A lot of them. Not as many as some would like, but until they rename the series The Witchy Twosome Hour I don't think there will ever be as many good W/T moments as some would like. And that's okay. There are enough good W/T moments now to demonstrate that the couple has the respect of the Buffy writers and directors, and that's a good thing. Plus Aly and Amber seem to be able to create good moments themselves out of thin air.

BOb, I may have deleted your post. I was trying to delete your double post and i deleted the oldest one and came back and saw that both were gone. My policy in deleting is to delete the oldest post. So if you are deleting your double post delete the oldest one. That way we don't delete both of them accidentally. And that's advice for everyone.

Better prove I'm worth my new Floating Rose rank.

The Cut Scenes:
Let's talk Hollywood reality. Writing a script is an inexact process; you will generally get a pages-to-minutes ratio for a given writer (or team), but that's still just an average. To be on the safe side, EVERYONE over-writes by a page or two. If it's too long, fine, we can trim a shot or few. If it's too short, you're in trouble. You have to go back, weeks later in the process (remember, this is after most of the editing has been done that they'll know), and shoot a couple new scenes. If actors have changed hairstyles in the meantime, they'll have to use other characters and force things. They'll have to match costumes and set designs to an episode that wrapped over a month ago. This is annoying and costs time and money.
I think you can see why trimming non-plot-crucial scenes is the more logical approach. And, having seen the shooting script, the walk-in-the-woods bit is about as non-plot as scenes get in this one. I even say that as a W/T fan.

As for the knife? There's no excuse for that one.

On to other matters: I've been thinking a lot about the Ben/Glory stuff and I'm still trying to make a final decision. My gut decision, when I first saw it, was that yes, they're the one and the same entity. One displaces the other (when? is this regular or spontaneous?), and they need to change clothes (as we saw) and will not retain memories. Those who witness the transformation end up with cloudy memories (that's in the script, so we know that much).

However, it's possible that the two can merely swap places under certain circumstances. Ben may have found himself in Glory's room wearing a sinky number just as she appeared before Dawn. I'm not as certain of this, but you never know. (How Glory keeps a mini-wardrobe in Ben's locker is another matter entirely.)

Then, there's Ben's nature whatever the case above. Is he evil?

Case for Yes: He summoned the Queller demon and killed off those lunatics, and almost got Joyce killed. He cleans up after Glory, doesn't actively work to stop her.

Case for No: The demon put those guys out of their misery. He didn't expect it to escape the hospital. He may have a 'cosmic deal' (a la B5's Vorlons and Shadows) with his sister not to interfere directly in what she does.

I'm completely undecided at the moment on this one.

Then, finally, The Key. How does Dawn fit in the equation? Glory wants her to open the door to her dimension (I presume). Ben wants her to run and keep Glory from succeeding. The Knights of Hack-n-Slash want simply to destroy her.

But which is the right answer? If Dawn runs, will that solve anything? If she is destroyed, will that only make things worse? Can Dawn come out of this alive? As a normal girl?

I gotta say, Joss keeps me guessing... and I kinda like it that way.

------------------
Kalita
Maquis operative and fanfic sponge

quote:

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Originally posted by newmoon07:
---you can see clearly see Tara's love through her immediate expression. The girl wears her emotions on her sleeve. Just in her voice, her eyes...you just KNOW that Willow IS her everything.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by tvsurfer:
regarding willow tara angst in their relationship. No thanks. we haven't even seen them hugging in front of the scoobies yet, even when we've had tara facing off with her dad or willow hurt.

The dance was nice but they still haven't kissed on screen and half the eppies this season made me wonder if they hadn't decided to just be friends rather than lovers afterall.

words are nice but I need pictures to believe

so I'd rather the writers work on making me feel like they are really a couple head over heals in love with each other, before they start messing with them.

heck let them go mess with anya and xander they've been a couple a whole lot longer and there hasn't been much angst in that relationship just one liners about sex

---

tvsurfer, I appreciate where you're coming from. But I have to say that I find WIllow and Tara entirely believable as a couple even without the kissing and hugging. Of course I want a kiss and more physicality. I'm certainly not sending letters to Joss demanding an onscreen full-on fight whereas I have campaigned for a kiss.

But I also think defensive representations of same sex relationships are boring and stifling. (And I dislike corny sentimentality in any romantic relationship). Sweetness only takes me so far. So you're right to point out the need for a kiss. I don't think any non-homophobes would argue against it (OK probably somewhere in the world a lesbian or lesbian friendly person doesn't think they should ever kiss onscreen). As much as I want a kiss I also want angst and I think both are important in terms of creating and showing a fully fleshed romantic (same sex) relationship in all its complexity. The kiss ain't happening anytime soon. But there is a solid enough history behind them that could stand -- even benefit from -- some angst. I truly respect Joss and co. for being so sensitive and careful. But that can also breed staleness so I worry.

Alas, neither of us is getting what we want.

ANd watch me eat my words when something horrible happens between Willow and Tara and I wish for nothing but syrup.

***************

OK, I'm feeling guilty because this is a thread about last night's ep and I've sped off on another tangent. My apologies.

Repeated gag- When Xander is tickling Dawn, she asks him if he got into the sugar again. Clearly, this is reminiscent of Buffy asking Willow if she was drinking coffee again. (Lie to Me, 2.7)

Exercise in Hopelessness- Dawn's homework is to write a letter to her future self. Since Dawn has no future, I expect we'll be reading this letter later on in the season. (a la Doyle's television commercial)

Metaphors Abound! - So, in season two we saw that slaying == gay (Buffy's mom has tried to march in the slayer pride parade), and in season four that witchcraft and spells == sex. Now we get to see some extended metaphors for The Key == adoption.

More Pain! I agree that things are going entirely too smoothly relationshipwise. There was a mild hiccup between W/T in Family, but other than that, they are kinda the model couple. I think it would be dreadfully ironic and wonderful if we had a scene where W. complained about Tara's rather clingy nature ("She's always so, so... there! Staring at me so adoringly! It makes me wanna scream!") That would be painfully funny.

Very oddball thoughts - Wouldn't it just be hilarious if all those alternate dimensions were different TV shows? Like, E.R. is the World without Shrimp. And W/T sent the troll to Charmed. I can definitely see Dawson's Creek being the Hell dimension that Glory rules over....

Little Miss Drama - Dawn with a knife. Yowza. Scary stuff. But in a good way, you know youknow?

Another set of Random thoughts - Was Giles making tea significant? Or just killing time? Glory's minions are called that and in caps) in the script, which I think is funny. Glory and the Minions, headlining tonight! What happened to Spikes box o' choc-lats? Spike stole a crystal from the Magic Box. Significant?

Ben the Evil Intern - is one hot Boyo! What a cutiepie! I also thought that Anya was looking pretty cute, too...

Fight Club - Nice to see the scoobies working togther to kick some bottom. We haven't seen a rumble like that for quite some time.

And to conclude:
We have a tie for the most interesting stage directions. Which one is cooler?

-Glory reaches for Dawn's head. Time for a cool, refreshing brain-suck.-

or

-Buffy pounds Glory like a hay thrasher set on puree.-

Gooood night everybody!

--
rev.Jon@han

[x] I caught the Tim the UNSPOILED stream of conscious virus!

This scene may have been cut for something other than time. If Joss and Co. had to fight the WB to get the girls shown in bed together (Family), then something as sexually overt as finger licking would probably be a fight as well.

Just a thought. . .

quote:

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INT. BUFFY'S LIVING ROOM - CONTINOUS - NIGHT

Birthday presents are strewn across the coffee table, some weapons, some clothes, a few books…

Willow and Tara are at the coffee table, cutting Buffy's birthday cake with a sharp, gleaming knife. WILLOW LAUGHS, LICKS A BIT OF STRAY FROSTING FROM TARA'S FINGER.

---

i'm just imagining it and wondering what Tara's expression as Willow licks her finger... a naughty grin perhaps? which finger could it be? left or right hand? what abt Willow's expression? she's probably lookin' straight at Tara's eyes as if she's saying "i want you.." heh.heh.

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"Hello! Tarasexual now..."

I've seen comments of people who think she's going to die or revert to her natural form or something by season's end, but I don't necessarily buy it. Dawn has her own unique qualities that she brings to the Scooby mix, and I don't necessarily see Joss wanting to give that up. Plus killing her off would go against the "building the family" theme of this season.

Here's an interesting question, though - suppose Dawn remains human, grows old and eventually dies. What happens then? Would she revert to her natural blob-of-energy state? Or would the door to Glory's demon dimension be closed forever? I wonder...

When it comes to willow nothing tara has done has been stiff/mechanical/routine or
indifferent. If the back rub or finger lick got cut, I'd say it was because it came off to "hot" for the kiddie audience that the WB is constantly trying for.

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
The monk in No Place Like Home said that Dawn was "completely human,"

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Although the monk said that Dawn was "completely human," her core energy still has to exist as a basic element within her. Given that the key has existed for thousands of years this leaves two alternatives. Dawn can grow old and die at which time she reverts back to her original state, or she can reach physical maturity at which time her core being prevents any cellular degeneration from taking place, in effect stopping the aging process.

Regardless it's an interesting discussion.

Michelle T was great, I was really impressed with her acting. My take is that somehow her memory got altered and that's why she couldn't tell Buffy that Ben morphed into Glory. You could see her struggling, like she knew there was something she had seen and had intended to tell Buffy but she couldn't remember it.

Willow and Tara are of course cute, although I did agree with some in thinking that Tara's reaction to Willow's falling down was kind of lowkey. But then it's true that Tara shows Willow everything with her eyes.

I was wondering why Buffy walked out of the hospital without getting her gaping chest wound looked at? It was kind of shallow and she heals faster but she should have at least got stitches or something.

I think the ep was pretty good. Next week's looks good too! It's only getting better and better this season.

WLW

You know, good point about gaping chest wound. I remember thinking that at the time but forgot about it when I got online to discuss. Lots of things were like that though.

This ep was so good ..... I loved the effects with Ben turning into Glory. I picked my cat up and made her look but she wasn't impressed, and bit my nose for waking her. I think my mouth fell open upon seeing that scene. I had read in spoilers they were siblings but I didn't think it was anything like *that!* I was one impressed chick.

Hmm what else ... there were some good lines in this ep, I liked Anya's "Xander needs help with his thing!" ... made me giggle.

Sadly I can't think of anything else to say, so I shall wander away for a while and see what I think of.