Sex!

[JustSkipIt]

Sally, you make a very good point about "would the characters have done the research?" Maybe a good rule of fun is that if you don't think W/T would do it without some experience, you don't want to write it without experience? Or that you can start writing it kind of building it up as they would.

[watty]

Maybe a good rule of fun is that if you don't think W/T would do it without some experience, you don't want to write it without experience?

I'm glad you only suggested it as a rule of fun, Debra because (TMI time) I wouldn't have written any smut into my fics based on experience alone. As we have discussed before, personally I prefer to write sex as a feeling rather than an act, focusing on what the characters are looking for at that juncture, how they react to it. Instruction manual sex scenes can work in some circumstances, but with a couple who are mostly depicted in an intense loving relationship, I just think there is more to it that "x doing y to z."
[br]

[FineyMcFine]

Maybe a good rule of fun is that if you don't think W/T would do it without some experience, you don't want to write it without experience? Or that you can start writing it kind of building it up as they would.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

As far as the experience part of it goes, in the specific scene of UberSmut that I was referring to, it was a spur-of-the-moment decision/inspiration for the characters. And so I thought in terms of that storyline, that it was realistic - I was pretty sure the WT in my story were in a place where it was something they would be much more likely to do on the spur of the moment rather than something that was planned and researched. Mostly because they hadn't had a lot of kink in their sex life but then they had just started this project and were excited about it.

I'm enjoying this conversation, by the way - I think that you and I agree on the main thesis here (fan fiction writers should do research so their fics are believeable) but we probably have very different opinions on a subset of that premise (fan fiction writers have a moral obligation to include commonly accepted standards of safety when writing BDSM and kink because people might use the story as a basis for their own real-life activities).

[JustSkipIt]

Hey y’all,

I think that you and I agree on the main thesis here (fan fiction writers should do research so their fics are believeable) but we probably have very different opinions on a subset of that premise (fan fiction writers have a moral obligation to include commonly accepted standards of safety when writing BDSM and kink because people might use the story as a basis for their own real-life activities).

I think you’re exactly right about that. You’re right that I feel a big responsibility because of the sheer amount of BDSM I’ve written. I think it would/could be very easy for a reader to read my work and assume, “wow. That must be the way to do it. After all, JustSkipIt says so and she’s clearly an expert.” Think about it, the stretch between believing that you have to have experience with kink to write kink and that any writer who writes kink has experience isn’t much of a stretch. So given that there’s a possibility that readers may have the (mistaken) belief that I’m any kind of BDSM expert, I really do feel a responsibility to portray very safe play (yes, with the exception of vampires).

I guess if I wrote a multi-part series about most activities, I’d want to be sure that I was writing about them in a way that would be safe. I wouldn’t write about car racing or snowboarding without finding out how to do either. Yes, back to the research thing…

But I also think that in the example you gave, in UberSmut, you’re probably right that W/T wouldn’t have had a safe word. Their play was a spontaneous event which didn’t result from any extended exposure to BDSM literature or movie and it’s not likely that they would have stopped in the middle of Tara’s (quite sexy) seduction to do some reading on the topic to make sure they were being safe. I don’t think it would have been appropriate any other way but being the paranoid I am, I probably would have thrown in an afterthought from one of them wondering if maybe they should find out more or not do it again or Tara worrying suddenly what if Willow hadn’t been able to breathe or reassuring herself a few times or whatever… I’m not saying you did it wrong here (really, really, really); I’m saying that I would probably have tossed in a line so that I could be assured that I wouldn’t feel guilty (which I have a tendency toward.

Now to the rule of fun…

What I was trying to say was that maybe it makes sense to not write something more intense/advanced your first writing than you feel W/T would do on that excursion. Would they do some light bondage and feathers? No doubt so go ahead and write it. But do you think their first foray away from vanilla activities would involve knives and candles and lube warmed in a bowl of hot water and a police officer’s baton? Probably not so maybe writing it for your first foray into writing BDSM isn’t a great idea. Heck, I’d probably apply that rule of “fun” into writing about magic too. Does that make more sense?

[FineyMcFine]

Yes, that clears up the rule of fun, and I would agree with it. I think that the rule of fun the way you describe essentially contains this guideline: stories should be realistic in what they portray, and it's likely that the first time someone does anything - whether it's bondage, mountain climbing, or playing the violin - that they will start with beginner's activities relevant to that sport, sexual practice, musical instrument, etc.

A concrete example - I don't find it realistic when I read fics where both of the characters are virgins and then they have sex and all of a sudden it's multiple orgasms and fisting and strap-on dildoes, etc. It tears the fabric of believeability. In the same way, if I wrote a story where Willow was just taking up mountain climbing, I'd have to research it since I don't know much about it, and since she wouldn't either then the first several scenes would likely take place on a climbing wall with an instructor, or on an easy mountain with an experienced partner who is coaching her all the way.

There is a great Xena uberfic called The Speed of the Beat of My Heart that opens with a scene that involves first-time anal sex for one of the characters, and I think that's a great example of that being done well. The character was not new to sex, she had been kicking the idea around for a while, and the person she meets in this bar was into it (and a whole lot more, also).

I guess where we differ are the reasons we both have for usually adhering to the rule of fun as it applies to BDSM scenes. For you, you feel responsibility not to portray something unsafe in case someone uses your story as an inspiration for real-life activities. For me, I would probably include safe words and safety nets in a hardcore BDSM fic because it's more realistic that way. (That's likely also part of the reason you would too, I'm just guessing.) Likely most (but not all) of the practitioners of hardcore BDSM do use safe words, so if I deviated from that in a story it would be for a reason. Maybe to show consequences or something like that.

In the same way that if Willow the mountain climber went climbing without ropes, a partner, or a carabiner I'd probably have her reflect upon the unsafety of it once she was done, like maybe she was upset and so went on a dangerous climb alone with no safety, or else have her get hurt to display what are likely to be the real-life consequences of engaging in an activity like that.

Although I also should say this discussion is mostly academic for me, since I've only written one very light bondage scene and I don't think I'm likely to start writing a hardcore BDSM fic.

[JustSkipIt]

Yes, you’ve got the rule of fun down to a nutshell I think. Why do they say down to a nutshell? Are there things we’re trying to get that small? Nevermind. I think I digress. I totally agree about the believability of certain activities relative to a point in a relationship. I asked a question about 6 posts up on exactly that. A few months ago I read a fic on another board in which the characters the first time they had sex, not only had anal sex (without asking) but oral/anal sex. What are the odds?

For me, I would probably include safe words and safety nets in a hardcore BDSM fic because it's more realistic that way. (That's likely also part of the reason you would too, I'm just guessing.) Likely most (but not all) of the practitioners of hardcore BDSM do use safe words, so if I deviated from that in a story it would be for a reason.

Yes to why I would do it too… My impression from what I’ve heard from friends is that generally the BDSM community is very stringent regarding their rules for inclusion and for safe play. From what I’ve heard, a practitioner who ignored the rules would basically be ostracized from that society. This could be totally wrong (because as I said, it’s the impression I’ve gotten) and it’s entirely possible that those doing it in their own relationship who have no social component may disregard rules entirely.

Although I also should say this discussion is mostly academic for me, since I've only written one very light bondage scene and I don't think I'm likely to start writing a hardcore BDSM fic.

See, that’s how rumors get started. People reading this thread going, “Hey! Sally’s going to start writing a BDSM fic.” “Yeah, she’s doing research.” “Oh yay. That should be funny…”

[DaddyCatALSO]

but oral/anal sex

Not just sexual matters but anything else, really, it boils down to timing and pacing. I have a piece in my notebooks involving what I quoted above, and it's plain from the narrative it isn't a new thing for them, but it's also set in 2013.

[JustSkipIt]

DaddyCatAlso - yes. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with writing (or doing it) but I don't really think that most people jump right in (so to speak) the first time they're with a new lover.

[Katharyn]

Oooh look what I did with a little comment about 'write what you know.'

Well it is the Kitten Board *S*

Just to come back to where this started a moment, I'd certainly advocate doing the research on whatever subject you choose to write on. More than most people I am a stickler for being correct (at least as far as I know it.) That's what makes me so argumentative.

Or so I'm told. I don't believe it though *S*

But research is one thing - it's not "knowing."

I have a book on American Sign Language that I occasionally refer to when writing my deaf character. I've seen a couple of plays put on by theatre groups that worked in sign and speech.

Doesn't mean I "know" though since I plainly don't share that particular experience. And that is really what I was meaning. Certainly not writing from ignorance when you can avoid it, but what I always took write what you know to be more a product of experience. To persist with the example to know and understand deaf issues I would need to experience it at a much less superficial level than a few articles, books and plays. At least I feel that is where 'knowing' lies.

And this is why I don't agree with it. Willful ignorance through laziness (not something that happens here but distressingly does in paid fiction sometimes) is something any author can avoid, but there comes a time when - unless it is a very personal story - you have to let go of your own experience and create a new one. Sure, that is coloured by your own life - even if you're writing its very opposite - but I just tend to think that is what most successful writers in this genre of fiction must do? Isn't it?

And yet it's the very thing new writers are told not to do? Or believe they shouldn't. What is the one piece of advice everyone 'knows' about writing? "Write what you know." It's all we hear!

So... sex.

Can't believe how far this has gone in a few days since I read this.

A few things I would like to comment on...

First the issue of a writers responsibility to their readers to present lets call it a 'safe' vision. Personally I am not sure this would occur to me in these terms. In the sense I would - somehow - research things as much as possible I would hope it would be so... but I wouldn't set out that way. Also it's what disclaimers are for. I wouldn't - for example - over write a scene to ensure that it contained enough detail to be safe? That is what notes are for, to inform the reader. I have - on occasion - had chance to see books that disregard basic rules of safe-hetero sex i.e. condoms. The place the author chooses to deal with that had been in a note up front, before you even get there. I can respect that way of dealing with things even if I happen to feel that some characters would be more believable if they followed those common sense rules. What I mean is that your responsibility as a writer to your readers is first for the story and characters to be the best it can be and second, in this case, to address the 'safety' issue somewhere. It doesn't have to be in the writing for me.

On the other hand, and this is my second point, when it come to W/T I wouldnt be writing a scene at the sort of level discussed here recently. Anyone who has read my ongoing fic will know that in the first half of it there are some dark, sexually laced, subjects in there that are never explicit but verge on disturbing. But I never quite took it that far because, rather than inspite of, the subject matter.

Could I write it? Probably, I've written some quite strong non-W/T fiction in the past.

Would I? Probably not. I don't think I could write the scenes that would 'earn' the shift in the characters to bring them there. My own personal vision of W/T (even involving a very 'realistic' VW (realistic in terms of the nature of a vampire)) never quite takes me there.

But this brings me to my third point. If you can 'earn' the scene and support with the development of the characters then all power to anyone who wants to take the characters there. However, can anyone really see that W/T, in the circumstances you mention, either aren't going to be completely trusting and knowing each other's limits anyway (and with good reason) or wouldn't be playing by the rules? It's Willow! She lives for rules and research! Tara's not far behind!

As for what you do the first time out... I'm not going to comment on people in general, since there are such a variety of us out there, but when it comes to W/T you have to earn it. The example of 2013 that was mentioned is a good one. By then the chartacters have been together the best part of 15 years and that alone can go a long way to earning it. But the first time? Okay, if you as a writer can show me as your reader why characters I already think I know would go there and I believe it - great! But that is one tough challenge you are setting yourself *S*

And that touches on a wider issue (for fan fic in general). You have to carry the reader with you - and you can't do that by creating a couple of 'characters' who have the names of the people you want to read about but share none of their traits.

History can change in fic, of course. The whole background and timeframe too. But at the heart they have to be a Willow and Tara - for this board - or you have to show me how they got to being a Willow and Tara from where they were when I knew them. But that's just me.

Okay, I have gone on long enough *S*

Katharyn

[The_Lord_J]

And that touches on a wider issue (for fan fic in general). You have to carry the reader with you - and you can't do that by creating a couple of 'characters' who have the names of the people you want to read about but share none of their traits.

A point well made that annoys me about some fics. I run the risk od threadjacking here, but it needs to be said; some of the fics on pens are awesome...except that it's just not W&T in them. The names are there but the characters aren't; particularly in smut. Some of the stuff I read I just think 'that's not Willow' - I've even seen writers jump from a reasonably Willowy Willow into something that barely resembles her at all in just one paragraph.

I mean, sure, it's difficult to write W/T smut because we never really saw any of it in the show, but is it SO hard to extrapolate their personalities that far instead of just writing something that sounds like a scene from an entirely different book/fic/show/whatever and slapping our girls' names on it? It just seems that the 'realism' rules seem to apply to any normal fic, but the minute they enter the bedroom (or Magic Box basement...or Buffy's Living Room...or...you get the picture ) together, all of those little things that identify the characters just seem to go straight out of the window, which ruins it for me as the reader.

If I wanted to read a generic sex scene I'd go elsewhere.

My, what a rant. Apologies, this is one of those things that really annoys me in fic. People not treating characterisation (sp?) with enough respect, especially with such a character-driven show. At the end of the day, we don't really care what bad guys the cast come up against, it's the characters we're watching the show for, and hence it's the characters we're reading the fic for.

Why do I get the feeling I just wrote far more than I needed to? I probably could have condensed all of that down to one paragraph if I'd thought about it ahead of time.

Ah well.

[umgaynow]

Sally, you make a very good point about "would the characters have done the research?" Maybe a good rule of fun is that if you don't think W/T would do it without some experience, you don't want to write it without experience? Or that you can start writing it kind of building it up as they would.

This is Willow Rosenberg we're talking about here...do you really think she would ever have NOT done the research?????

[kivrin]

*LOL* that was true! I can picture Willow doing research 'bout this topic.
in fact it isn't an unusual situation, I've read so many fics where
Willow goes to a bookshop or surfs the internet in a desperated-research-mode as soon as she realizes that she's kinda gay and actually wants to be with another girl.

[JustSkipIt]

I'm working to write a scene and eventually a few scenes that could possibly go in the Sexual/Ethics thread over on the other board. The scenes I'm writing I expect will be quite beautiful and loving. At the same time, viewed from an objective viewpoint the following are true:

* Neither W nor T are 18 at the time of the scene.
* One is (justifyably) under the influence
* One basically works for the other

It's a very complicated situation and one which takes place in a universe where I don't think the age limit means the same thing as it does to us. In that universe they are basically adults with learning yet to accomplish and they could have become fully recognized as such years earlier. The drugs are not an issue as they are for a reason and the third issue will definitely be an issue throughout the story.

Still, I find myself wanting to write a long disclaimer about the first two items. I am 39 years old (gasp) and it feels so strange to write about minors having sex. I have intentionally never done it before. As I say, it's a very unusual situation but one that feels very strange to me.

Any comments? Thoughts? Similiar experiences?

[Katharyn]

Hmm, definitely a tricky one. It all depends on context and presentation. In my own fic where I was uncomfortable with the idea of necessary sexual activity between Tara and Vamp-Willow I simply never showed it, only the consequences. Then I had to keep it real. People have feelings and thoughts about anything that happens. I think you have to justify the scene and their feelings so the reader can see exactly what they thought about it.

Specially regarding the points you raised:

Underage - Not a huge issue so long as they both are (which you said) and as long as there is absolutely no part of the reason they are hooking up is one being older than other and using that. I mean honestly, is anyone going to believe a 16 or 17 year old T/W aren't going to fool around? That said I'd be wary of how old they are at the time.

Under the influence - people have sex under the influence of something that happens all the time, it's Friday night culture! However, once again, you need to be very clear that the reason they are having sex isn't just because one takes advantage of the other being under the influence. Hypothetically if Willow wanted to have sex with Tara and just couldn't step over the line and then being on medication helped her get there that's one thing. If she'd plainly said she wasn't interested and then Tara (again hypothetically) took advantage of her being on medication then that is a) out of character for Tara and b) overstepping the mark.

(Please note I am not suspecting you of going down these 'unacceptable' lines, I am just trying to demonstrate that what you have in mind may not be as big a problem as you think - at least not if the clarity is there for the reader. If you can see how the girls feel and think about each other in advance and after the event... I don't think that's a problem.)

Sex with the boss - I wouldn't recommend it, but there's no law (yet.) It sounds from your post as if your saying this will be a story point (I imagine one feels guilty about it due to working for the other? If so you need to very clearly delineate this feeling from guilt about the medication/age IMHO just to be clear.)

It's tough to be exact about these things not knowing the background but one general comment I would make is that yoru universe where age isn't an issue... I'd be careful with that one. Age limits etc are very important. It may not be realistic in CA at 18, but they are there for a reason in general - so I wouldn't overplay it, but thats just me. I'm supercautious about this kind of thing. Always look to who might be reading rather than just your own thoughts. While YOU know the universe you're writing, if what's on the page doesn't explain what you know, no one else will. If you are just making underage sex okay so it fits your story that's a very different thing to creating a universe where the rules have evolved differently. I really would be extremely careful with this though - it's not JUST the girls in your universe is it? That means the rules you create apply to other people and readers may not be comfortable with what you put in place.

Depending on what you write your disclaimer/notes should deal with these issues I think, but personally I'd want to see it in the text, not just the notes. Show me the girls feel okay about it, or its not an issue to them and it really doesn't have to make that big an impact.

As a rule of thumb though, and looking back at other posts in this thread, ask yourself if it's in character. Your Tara and Willow can't just be people named that way. They should be Tara and Willow in other circumstances. Earn the differences in your writing and you will carry the reader with you. But to be in character there are still things they will and won't do. So ask yourself, what would Tara do? LOL

Then get a good beta reader that you've explained all this too as well, so they understand the universe. They should be able to help judge how it'll be taken.

If in doubt after all that then consider not explicitly showing the scene. From a story PoV you can show build up and aftermath and get all the emotion you need to without writing the mechanics of it.

Hope that helps

Katharyn.

[JustSkipIt]

Kathryn,
Thanks for your well thought-out and expressed thoughts on the question. I guess I was more looking for discussion than advice per se but I still enjoyed what you had to say. I agree that everything about the topic

depends on context and presentation.

Age: I 100% believe that it won’t be an issue for readers. I more meant that I found it a little uncomfortable for myself. But I don’t think that anyone reading it could possibly think that there’s something wrong because of the age.

Under the influence.

However, once again, you need to be very clear that the reason they are having sex isn't just because one takes advantage of the other being under the influence.

Oh. Very very far from the situation. I can’t explain the situation now without totally spoiling it but that is not the situation at all.

That means the rules you create apply to other people and readers may not be comfortable with what you put in place.

A very interesting point you make. I find it most interesting because if you read higher in this thread, I tend to come down on the side of feeling that I have a responsibility to portray safe sex or save play and I think most of the other writers commenting here feel that I take that too seriously. Or at least that there’s a difference in my responsibility to my art and my responsibility to warn/educate. Still, I don’t believe that age will be a barrier in this particular fic but I will include a mention of it in the disclaimer.

As a rule of thumb though, and looking back at other posts in this thread, ask yourself if it's in character. Your Tara and Willow can't just be people named that way. They should be Tara and Willow in other circumstances.

Very good thought/point. Yes, they will be W/T in the AU and it will be fully in character.

If in doubt after all that then consider not explicitly showing the scene. From a story PoV you can show build up and aftermath and get all the emotion you need to without writing the mechanics of it.

Hmmm. That’s an interesting piece of advice. I’ve actually been mulling this for a few weeks and think that strangely enough in this situation showing the scene will work better and be less explicit (I know that makes NO sense) than not showing it but allowing my narrator to ruminate on it. I know, it makes no sense but I really feel it will work.

I really appreciate the energy you put into your discussion. Thank you.

[umgaynow]

I think it could get interesting to write a little strange kink into a fic and then write about the aftermath. Does it bring the characters closer together? Shift them light years apart? I don't have any strange kinks, unfortunately, so writing it into a fic would be sort of like running a marathon without any shoes.

The problem I have with writing sex in general is that I get turned on while writing it and then am too aroused to write. I end up writing in bits and pieces, most of which I throw away. *sigh* But it sure is a great process.

If I get turned on while writing it...then I know it's a really good scene and will definitely get the kittens all hot and bothered...so, ho with it...just keep both hands on the keyboard and funnel the energy into the work