Willow Character Study - Discussion

[Lijdrec]

I'm a bit concerned about the propensity of fans of any one character to blame that characters actions on another character's faults. It is a common human trait, to blame others for our own misgivings; but I have always thought that the opposite was what JW intended to put forth in his writings. It is mostly true that we are responsible for our own choices in our life. Even when situations are thrust upon us, there are choices. The external factors that are there, pressing on the mold that is our personal morality. Our emotional state also has much to do with whether we allow our mold to crack, or even break.



Willow has not had the chance to fully work through her feelings following Buffy's death. How bitter-sweet the joy of having Tara returned must have become for a time. The leadership of the Scoobies was thrust upon her and she was not allowed the luxury of her anger over the loss of her friend. She was stuck in the 'Bargaining' phase (perhaps with a twinge of Denial) throughout the first half of the season (thru Wrecked). If anything the addiction-scenario was a help in forcing her to look inward and examine herself.



It may be this repressed anger that catalyzes her reaction to Tara's murder. If the situation had been different without the previous pains, the lessons of her lover might have been enough to console Willow. In the end a Magickless Willow will be left with nothing but her pain (and also perhaps us), what she does with that will determine the true value of her character. What we do with ours......



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And yes there is a metaphorical response possible to her pain, it was foreshadowed in Something Blue by D'Hoffryn.

[tommo]

Yes, Xita. My anger stems not so much from whether Tara will return or not, because I honestly believe in my heart that she will.



No, my anger comes from the fact that we're going to have to see this happen to a character we love dearly. We're going to have to see Tara get shot senselessly; and then we're going to have to watch Willow have to deal with that.



Violation of trust? Oh hell yeah. Joss has wooed us so perfectly with Willow and Tara's relationship. He's lulled us into a false sense of security about our sexuality and our hope for lesbian relationships like this. He's even giving us one final thrill of joy in seeing Willow and Tara experience the true love scene that we've been denied so far. And then, he's making it all for naught.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[Popje]

My apologies Tommo - but I thought this was a Willow character study thread - thus Dark vs Evil does fit, because I don't think it helps clarify her actions are not those of a evil Buffy Villain. They're the actions of a classically-influenced drama/hero. This can tie into the theory "I'm mad with grief and indirectly trying to kill myself" if you want it to. And if you want to to tie it in with folks being punished for following the rules - let's not forget that Willow broke those rules in a big way when she brought Buffy back from the dead.



Hers was a big act of hubris (pride). She brought Buffy back. And so, if you look to classic motifs of the revenge drama or Greek Tragedy - we'll always see the same thing. We've got a good hero, who makes a bad mistake (usually one originating from a characater flaw ie pride, arrogance) . So then the fates screw them over...their hubris is always punished.

[Warduke]

About xita’s post, I just have to say…ditto!



It’s too late for me to just walk away from Buffy at this point, I will have to stay till the very end (of this season at least) but I will never, ever watch any other show that ME does, they lost my faith with this insane storyline and they will never get it back, I will watch the rest of this season and hope for the best, but ME has lost this viewer for any other future projects.



This is hard, not only the nasty things we know are going to happen in the next few episodes but also the fact that (like many others here) my view of the show has changed irreconcilably, what I once thought was a brilliantly written show now goes this route, hits lows that I thought weren’t possible a year ago, for what? Nothing, absolutely nothing. There isn’t any possible explanation that they can give me that will make me believe that all this carnage was necessary.



Of course it’s even harder not knowing for sure what will happen in the end, how I wish we knew for sure what would happen, if Tara was dead for good, then I could sever my ties to this show once and for all, but I can’t, since it could all be ok in the end. But ME has done something that is unforgivable and I will never forget it.

__________

Respect My Authoritah!

[tommo]

Popje, you're right of course. This is a Willow character study thread. And your points are perfectly formed and well explained. I suppose I was applying this to the spoilers and eventual episodes themselves.



The fate of Willow is rooted in the genre of classic tragedy; you're right there. And I know that Joss is fond of the classical input into his storylines, that of the overwhelming odds of "the fates", if you like.



I think though, that this thread was originally started in the intention of looking specifically at Willow and why she, more so than the other Scoobies, is singled out for such a horrific act of betrayal from the writers. Because that's what it feels like.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[FriskyLez]

Exactly the point that i was trying to make with my post in regard to Willow going on a "bender"..She has nothing left to lose, why the hell not go off the wagon she and let all that pent up rage out....One can only take all the headaches and heartaches for so long, you try to do the right thing and you still get screwed..There comes a time when you say to yourself enough is enough..



I so can relate, i went thru a diffucult period a few months ago, financially, personally, emotionally, everything sucked..So one day i said phuck it, whats the use, whats the point, if things are going to be this shitty, i might as well lessen the pain...i went down to the store and bought me a bottle of booze and on my way back, i kind of dared my higher power to show me someone cared, that i wasnt alone in the world..Someone i loved very much had recently broken up with me, and i said ok, tell ya what you dont want me to drink, have so and so call me right as i twist the top off the bottle and ill tell ya what, ill take that as a sign and i promise not to drink..



Of course im thinking that aint gonna happen...Well, i got back home and no sooner did i twist off that top than the phone rang..It was my ex calling to see if i was ok, i didnt tell her what i was about to do, somehow she just knew..She kept talking to me on the phone, stalling and by the time she finally said dont do anything im on my way there, she was at my door..She had been on her cell phone and kept me on the phone long enough to get to my apt..



Moral of the story is i was touched when she started crying and said she knew if i took that drink, that from everything i told her, i would never go back to being sober..She couldnt let that happen..She and i never have spoken again, but i will always believe she came into my life, not to cause me heartache, but to be there for me in that one moment in time....I still get chills when i think about it...



I have a feeling Willow will be at that point, perhaps the writers have a plan, in that moment in time when Willow is at her worst, when all is lost and there is nothing but the pain, they will miraculously somehow, someway, have Tara show up at that moment and intervene, stop Willow before she gets to a point where she cant turn back..All i know is that Tara dying so suddenly with no last words just doesnt cut it, there has to be a moment where Tara can let Willow know she will always be there for her, if only in spirit...How they bring Tara back alive i do not know..Which is another reason i have a bad feeling about next season....Sorry didnt mean to ramble

Carpe Noctem

[Willowlicious]

Quote:

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Today, somebody tried to explain the situation to me by telling me that everyone in life goes through these kinds of things. That losing Tara, for Willow, is an example of the tragedy that everyone experiences at some point in their life.



But you know what? That's bullshit. It's all bull. If the writers are trying to insist that there is always hope, then I'm failing to understand that. When you've been cheated for all of your life and that's just consolidated in the worst way possible, where's the hope there? What other conceivable choice does Willow have? This isn't a question of "Willow choosing to go bad". It's merely a result of a lifetime of pain.

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Well, I'm not sure if the person who was trying to tell you that was either hopelessly naive (having never experienced great loss) or hopelessly cynical. Either way, they were hopelessly wrong.



The majority of people will NEVER experience having the true love of their life shot through the back and die instantly in the very bedroom they'd just had passionate make-up sex in the night before. This is not about simply losing a loved one. All of us have to eventually endure that. This is not even about losing a spouse or lover. Many, though not all, will have to endure this, though most will experience it later in life, as opposed to when they are say, 21. This is about losing your hope, your purpose, your direction, your youth, your very life in one moment. And this is about true love. I believe in true love, but I believe it is rare. Millions of people live their entire lives without experiencing it. They may find love (X/A type love...and it is nice), but they will sadly never know what it is like to have the unconditional love of a soulmate. The flip side of finding your soulmate, is that your soul is never complete if your soulmate is taken from you. You do not simply 'move on' from such a loss. You are forever broken.



That is true of anyone who loses their true love. But Willow is especially vulnerable, as many have documented in this thread. To lose her soulmate at such a young age when she has experienced such loss and pain and rejection already is more than she can handle. This is definitely not the kind of loss most people eventually experience in their lifetimes. It is cruel and unusual. Excessive.



You can break people. I used to believe that people could come back from anything. I was young and naive and stupid. People shatter. People crumble.



People commit suicide.



That doesn't always mean they were weak. Sometimes it means that more was placed on their shoulders than any amount of human strength could withstand.



Yes, Willow Rosenberg, a brave, loyal, sweet, moral, loving, funny, quirky, brilliant, hopeful, happy woman can be broken beyond repair. Everyone can be broken beyond repair.



And I sure as hell didn't need ME to tell me that.



Amy

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Soft hair and a velvet tongue, I wanna give what you give to me

And every breath that is in your lungs is a tiny little gift to me

The White Stripes

[tommo]

Quote:

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The flip side of finding your soulmate, is that your soul is never complete if your soulmate is taken from you. You do not simply 'move on' from such a loss. You are forever broken.

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Precisely, Amy. Perfect.



In a show where the word "soul" is used often, and is considered a thing of importance in order to discern a person's humanity, it seems to me that killing Tara is killing Willow's soul. Taking away from her the one indefinable thing that links her to human experience. I wouldn't want Willow to live without her soul.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[AutumnT]

I usually don't do this, but I have to put a plug in here for a video that's over at the Pens board called Transparent because it pretty much blew me away and it really seems to fit in with this discussion of Willow's character and why she behaves the way she does. You can find it (I think it may be on page 2 now) under this heading: VIDEO: Willow character study. It's very well done, and frankly has sort of haunted me a bit since I watched it.

Autumn

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I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation

[Blue77]

Tommo - I'm really impressed with your post and I'm so glad that someone has actually come forward and said this about Willow because I was getting a little tired of people constantly asking how is she going to come back from this? etc



I agree with everything you've said. Willow is my favourite character and she always gives so much more than Buffy or Xander and gets little reward for it. She's always been the one true friend on the show who is never selfish or self-absorbed, and one slip doesn't take that away, I can totally understand how the character has got to this point and for me ... there's nothing to forgive.



I mean even when she did all that stuff with Amy it was like she was only doing it to be fun, to be likable and because Amy had wound her up about being boring and wanting to stay in, like they were at school. Willow just has insecurities, we all do, she's never been a bad person, and never will be.



All it takes is one look from Willow to know that everything she does is with her heart and soul, whether it's misguided or not and I love her for that. It's one of the reasons why Willow and Tara are so good together because Tara has the same true heart, only arguably she is more mature and grounded.



I know Aly is worried that the fans will start to hate Willow because of the dark willow stuff and I just want to say in a resounding loud voice NO WE WON'T!!! WE LOVE YOU!!



And that's it, piece said.



Rent-a-mouth.

"She should have died hereafter: There would have been a time for such a word ...

...it is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Shakespeare/Macbeth

[Popje]

Well Tommo - I'd say Willow's being singled out for all this meaness because:

1. She's the nicest Scoob, and Joss once said (and I'm paraphrasing here) you want to make the audience cry, "hurt Willow".

2. She had the arrogance and gall (and power) to get Buffy back from the dead. Remember what Giles said to her at the beginning of the season? "You arrogant..." - fits with hubris always gets punished.

3. Tragedy and horror are always scariest when it's the least expected (or most undeserving) person that's the victim. (and that goes for Tara too). Example - Othello and Desdemona. Hamlet and Ophelia. Lear and his kindly daughter. Did Desi really deserve that? Sheesh. But it wouldn't be Othello if she didn't get killed.

4. ME wants to spread the suffering around more than laying it all on Buffy.

5. Aly, Aly, Aly.

[FriskyLez]

I understand what you are saying, but from my perspective why all at one time,??Hell they have had a whole season to show Willow the consequences of her magic, but the writers went off on a Buffy/Spike tangent and a Xander/Anya getting married tangent and a three nerds try to kill Buffy in tangent..They had plenty of opportunities to explore the dark magicky side of Willow..Usually one would think the events that take place lead up to a certain event, this all happens in one fell swoop, Tara killed needlessly, Willow off deep end..



As for the "bad things happen to nice/good people" theory, sorry thats a cop out in my opinion by the writers..



I think (and i may be speaking out of turn here, if so i apologize) the question all those here seem to be asking isnt as simple as "why is it Willow"..Its why does it all happen at once and why kill Tara to get to a place Willow has been before..We have already seen her dark magick/evil Willow side, when Glory brain sucked Tara...Do we really need to know that she can get worse?? I for one think not...Its pretty obvious Tara is Willows world and vice versa, duhhhhh lets kill Tara and see what Willow does..Duhhhhhhh....Sheesh i dont need to see Tara die in order to know what Willow would do, thanks very much..

Carpe Noctem

[Thanatopsis]

I think part of the problem here, (besides the obvious fact that Tara would be dead) is that people feel this sort of story line is a cop out. It's not that its been done before or even that its been done to death, its that this show had been unique and different and managed to get certain points acrossed without being cliche. Fortunetly or not, we've come to expect more from Joss, ME and Buffy in general beacause of this. I'm willing ot concede that perhaps Tara's death fits perfectly into the story line (but only because I haven't seen it yet). Its difficult not only because we've invested so much in these characters, this relationship, but because we feel we've been treated differently than other television viewers and now we're being treated like crap.

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You can't shave an unsedated skunk.

Dawn: I gave birth to a pterodactyl.
Anya: Oh my god. Did it sing?

[Popje1]

well FriskyLee as I pointed out in earlier posts – I think the writers are following the laws of classic tragedy quite precisely. And others (more eloquent than I) have pointed out that foreshadowing for Will has gone on since S3. I have a theory that the writers at ME are secretly huge fans of UPN’s premiere broadcast and have wanted to do an homage for ages – in the form of a Buffy vs Willow Smackdown. Any takers on this theory?

[tommo]

Popje, I see your theory on this.



I've read in several places that, although SMG is the lead in the show, it's Alyson who's the big hitter, acting-wise.



But you know, I love Alyson and nobody cries like she does. But dammit, we went through this last year in Tough Love, what with the whole sitting on the bench whimpering and holding Tara scene.



I can't even begin to imagine the powerful sight of a grieving Willow in this season. And somehow, I don't really want to. It will hurt...it will hurt too much.



Sigh.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[Thanatopsis]

I totally agree. I think Aly's acting is amazing and am glad that she's getting "streched", but I'm not sure my heart could take watching that. TL was bad enough.



I agree with your thoughts on the tragedy story line, Popje, but I still feel this is a cop out. They're following it too closely, IMO. Its one thing to use it as a jumping off point, its another to mimic it completely. Just too easy and I expect more.

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You can't shave an unsedated skunk.

Dawn: I gave birth to a pterodactyl.
Anya: Oh my god. Did it sing?

[FriskyLez]

Well, if its classic tragedy they want to write now, then they have run out of ideas...I fear for season 7 because what will you have Xander as Hamlet, Buffy as Lady MacBeth, Giles as King Lear, W/T as Romeo and Juliet? You get my point..BtVS has always been unique, as have the characters, to try say they are just writing "classic tragedy" now is a writers cop out.. .



As for the foreshadowing of Willows dark side, I dont think the scoobies getting pissed cause a few spells went awry compare with what we saw after Tara was brain sucked, nor does it compare with what is to come..JMO

Carpe Noctem

[Lothar]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommo said "I think though, that this thread was originally started in the intention of looking specifically at Willow and why she, more so than the other Scoobies, is singled out for such a horrific act of betrayal from the writers. Because that's what it feels like."



I know I don't post often but this is something I feel strong about. You know why it feels that way? Because it actually is. Of the four original cast members (Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles) the only person that comes close to the amount of torment that Willow has gone through is Buffy. However Willow has gone through even more. Shall we count the events that has caused tremendous grief between the two?



Buffy: Her death in season 1. Angel going bad, killing angel, and kicked out of house in season 2. In season 3 nothing comes to mind except Angels near death, but I dont think that was bad enough to count so no points there. Season 4 we had Parker and the argument in the "Yoko Factor". Season 5 there were some severe events with the death of Joyce, Rileys departure, and the capture of Dawn (I am not counting her death because she looked pretty damn peaceful at the end.) Finally in season 6 Her return to earth and her realization fo what she was doing with Spike was wrong.



Total count: 11



Willow: Season 1 we had the issue in the Pack and finding the bodies in Prophesy Girl. Short lived but severe. Season 2 Xanders spell in BBB, and her discovery of Xander with Cordelia. Season 3 losing Buffy's attention to Faith and Xander having sex with Faith I count as two differnt things, just hit her at the same time. Season 4 The discovery of Oz cheating on her and then losing him. The argument in the "Yoko Factor". Season 5 she lost Tara and Buffy. Season 6 she finds out about Buffy being in Heaven, Tara leaves her, and then she has a breakdown after she almost kills Dawn.



Total count: 14



Ok, I may have missed some, and I may be biased, so sue me.



But I didnt even include the horrible death that will occur which should get at least 5 points counted towards that total. So, when you say it feels like Willow gets picked on the most it's because she is. Why? I don't know. As much as I love the character Willow, and as much as I enjoy Aly's acting, give her a break already!





Sorry for the long rant.



Lothar

[Popje1]

I'd agree with everyone that the setup was/is scattershot this year. After what I see as a somewhat tepid season set up, we're suddenly going for a whole bunch of shock value plot devices. The set ups in S1-4 were just better.

[WebWarlock]

Lots of things at once.

Quote:

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by Tommo

Okay, Evil Willow vs Dark Willow. Not a question or discussion to be had in here. The rampage Willow goes on in the aftermath of Tara's death has little to do with "evil" or "darkness". It's to do with having no concern for her own life anymore.

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Exactly. Willow has lost her soul because she gave it to Tara. Willow knows what she is doing. This is not a merely a vengeance run, it is a suicide run. If she happens to take out Warren and the nerd herd when she goes boom herself. Well bonus for the universe.



Also. I aptly refuse to refer to her as evil Willow, I'll call her Black Magic Willow (BMW) because that is a fair assessment. There is nothing evil about her pain, except for the evil that caused it.

Quote:

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by Dr.G

Well I sincerely hope that having your lover senselessly blown away is not a tragedy everyone will experience. Sure if you live long enough you will encounter tragedy, loss, but Willow is 20 years old. She already has 'experienced' more death and pain than most people do in a lifetime. And this is beyond all reason. Honestly, I see no excuse for this storyline. None. Willow isn't evil, these spoilers are.

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Exactly right Garfield. This is too much to take. No one has to go through all of this. Especially us. We watched it happen to Buffy and Angel, we watched it happen to Giles and Jenny. Note to ME, we got the fucking point! Now lay off!

Quote:

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by Xita

Someone asked earlier why anyone would vow to not watch Firefly. I tell you, I would. I really actually have already and any future Joss Whedon show. You know why? Cause my trust has been violated. I can't trust this man or his company to do right by the characters. How can I get involved in the future knowing what they are capable of, for whatever reason. I am involved in this, I can't turn my back, but I have a choice in the future. And they have lost me as a viewer, costumer etc.



What Willow is going through is unnecessary. Why would I knowingly put myself through this again in the future. Get involved with their characters again? NOT bloody likely.

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Allow me to follow that up with a hell ya! Well I am not watching it. And I take full credit as being one of the first to state this. I am not even going to try watching it. EVEN IF this season ends well, why would I want to put myself through this again. What if there is a character there I really identify with? What if there is a character I grow to love more than Willow and Tara? There will always be that doubt in my mind that it is going to ripped away from me, and maybe in the most horrible way possible. No thanks ME. If I want ground breaking SciFi I'll keep watching Farscape (which has yet to let me down).



I am with Buffy till the end of this season for ONE reason only (ok, well maybe two) and that is to see Willow and Tara alive and together. I will accept nothing less. But this had better be good, cause I am not enjoying what they have done to Willow this whole season.

Quote:

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by Willowlicious

Yes, Willow Rosenberg, a brave, loyal, sweet, moral, loving, funny, quirky, brilliant, hopeful, happy woman can be broken beyond repair. Everyone can be broken beyond repair.

And I sure as hell didn't need ME to tell me that.

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Yes. Exactly right. (love your name by the way!)

I used to believe, not more than a few short months ago, that Willow would never commit suicide. It would be a weakness to her, against society's rules, her religion and her friends. But now. Now I see a sad and broken Willow. I see a Willow who has worked so hard for the one thing in life she wanted just for herself; a goddess named Tara. And I see everything she has worked for taken away from her at the moment when everything seems to be perfect. I now see suicide as a mercy for her poor shattered soul. If she takes out Warren at the same time, then great.

And if this is the case, there is nothing to forgive. Willow would have acted as I would have.



People are all asking about the innocent lives Willow might (or does) take. Personally I am only concerned with one innocent life lost. Tara’s.



This whole magic addiction-losing Tara-black Magic Willow storyline has been a disaster from the word go. Everyone is saying that things will be alright. They have had all damn season to make things alright and they haven’t! Why should I believe that they are going to start now? I don’t care if Joss wrote this all out on a napkin during a break in Season 4. It is obvious that he is not at the helm anymore.



Yes senseless tragedy happens every day. But that is not why I watch TV shows. If I wanted to see that I would watch CNN. I thought Buffy was about good triumphing over evil. I thought Buffy was about taking old tired clichés and putting them on their heads. I thought the Buffy staff was better than this.



I guess I was wrong.



Warlock

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Web Warlock,
web.warlock@attbi.com

The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/

ShadowEarth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/

Liber Mysterium: the Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

[FriskyLez]

I was cracking up at your "Joss writing season 4 on a napkin line" I agree 100 percent that even though he may have come up with the storyarc as some say and been involved in post production, the writing isnt the same..Now i kind of bashed Marti when i said that and really hadnt intended to...BUT someone has to be responsible for the direction of these stories and shes the one in charge at the moment..I dont think, even if Joss didnt like the scripts, he'd have time to rewrite them, as someone said earlier, they're in the "can"...He would have to let it go the way its written..I personally think hes somewhere shrugging his shoulders and going well what the hell can i do now..The damage is done..

Carpe Noctem

[tommo]

Quote:

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I usually don't do this, but I have to put a plug in here for a video that's over at the Pens board called Transparent because it pretty much blew me away and it really seems to fit in with this discussion of Willow's character and why she behaves the way she does. You can find it (I think it may be on page 2 now) under this heading: VIDEO: Willow character st It's very well done, and frankly has sort of haunted me a bit since I watched it.[/b]

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Thanks for the tip Autumn. It's a wonderful music video; very nostalgic and at the same time, perfectly able to elucidate on the many points people have made about Willow in this thread. The mustc is perfectly chosen and I notice you used the word "haunted". That's a great description for how it makes you feel.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[Jane]

Wow.



Thanks for starting this thread - wonderful comments all around. Not much else to add, except that Willow is "the spirit" of the show, as has been noted by the writers any number of times. And I still don't buy that they'll break the spirit of the show - or leave it broken for long. I may end up having to buy that, but I'm not buying it just yet. I have to believe that Joss & Co. ultimately have a point, and that this will all somehow reveal more about the characters of both Willow and Tara. I just hope it's important enough to justify all this time in the Thespian trauma ward, and I hope they go ahead and make their point before we're all blue haired retirees cheating on bingo together and forgetting to take our medicine.



Thematically, I really don't have any problem with how season 6 has been structured. In theory, I rather like the idea of not having a Big Bad during the "Oh, Grow Up!" season, but rather leaving each character to battle their own inner demons. (Willow's addiction, Buffy's "I can't be bothered to train for a job that doesn't involve the wearing of poultry on my head because that would mean making a commitment", Xander's Great Altar Escape, ect.)



So it's all about emotional paralysis and the struggle to avoid adulthood for as long as possible, huh? Great. Hell, I like Chekhov, but just not for one entire season. (Well, ok, I don't recall Chekhov doing a spiffy little musical. There was that Andrew Lloyd Webber adaptation of "The Cherry Orchard", but we won't go there ...)



Hmm ... I'm almost certain I had a point when I started ... Ah, yes. All this might even have the makings of a nice dissertation, but as entertainment, it's been spotty at best. I really don't mean to disparage Ms. Noxon, but it could have helped matters so much if she'd just gotten someone to step up and "bring the funny" a little more often. That's one area where Joss' day-to-day presence has been sorely missed - that ability to mix the tragic and the comic without diminishing either.



I'm trying my best to reserve judgement until the end of the season. I just hope that what we get is more than just Bigger-and-Better Pyrotechnics! and Bigger-and-Worse Trauma! If it truly serves the story and it truly results in the meaningful development of the characters, then fabulous.



But, as angst-driven as the show has always been, I seem to recall a time when the writers didn't have to resort to killing a key character every time they wanted to get our attention.



Or to tell a good story.



I think that came out ranty.





Jane's Addiction



"Gun? No, I was never a gun. Someone else should be the gun. I could be a cudgel, or a pointy stick."

"Oh, I feel just like Santa Claus. Except thinner, and younger, and female, and well, Jewish."

[BBOvenGuy]

I haven't contributed anything to this thread yet, largely because all of you folks are doing such a great job on your own. I do have to express myself just a little, though, because before this season Willow's character development had always been the most organic on the entire show, and now it has completely come apart.



I tried really hard to believe in the addiction storyline. I tried really hard to defend it to the enormous mob of fans railing against it. This is all rooted in personality traits Willow has had all along, I said. Just watch, she'll emerge from this a better, more balanced person.



I should have known better.



As I and others have said elsewhere, having Willow go all dark-magic on everyone blows away an entire year of character development. It's "Tough Love" all over again. Everything Willow went through since then was for nothing. Furthermore, the addiction storyline is now doubly worthless. Many people were expecting Willow to fall under the influence of dark magic back around the time of "Smashed" and "Wrecked." In some ways, I was myself, although I would never have imagined anything like this.



But no - the addiction storyline was as useless and meaningless as all the naysayers said it was. Willow's line in the musical - "I think this line's mostly filler" - was more prophetic than anyone knew. The addiction storyline was mostly filler, keeping Willow occupied until she could blow her stack during the May Sweeps.



Three cheers for Mutant Enemy's brilliant plot strategy, eh?

------------------------------------------------
Reconning past nightfall since September 2000...

[Wiccagrrl313]

Which reminds me of another behind the scenes thing I'd love to know more about...what happened earlier in the season to switch around the timing of this arc? I mean, it sure seems like Normal Again was a reworking of the rumored ep Asylum (which was supposed to be, what, ep 8 or 9?) We were hearing that Tara's death was planned for Feb sweeps. So, did they decide it was too traumatic to drag out that long? Was there a change in how it was going to end? Was it always intended to go this way, with the addiction/recovery arc as a big red herring? I'm curious what happenned. And a bit angered that the people who kept saying it felt so grafted on, like a huge shift in direction, were very likely right.

Tracy

******************


VILLOV

I troost yuu. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp!

[cachaco]

Hear, hear, the "Transparent" video is really well done, and the music is indeed beautiful and haunting. A number of the cuts are just matched so perfectly to the lyrics, it's really quite impressive. Thanks for the tip, Autumn.



And thanks tommo for starting this thread, I've enjoyed the discussion greatly. I think the point made earlier about Buffy getting to make her own rules while Willow strives so hard to follow societal ones is particularly telling. Magic allowed Willow to bend some pretty significant rules - of physics, nature - in a way that gave her validation from her friends. Doubly empowering in that respect, doubly seductive.



I can see how it's easy for the casual observer to confuse Willow's overwhelming and closely related anger and need for affection/respect with a lust for power. However, as has been well established here and in other threads, power is a means, not an end in itself for Willow. Even now, as BMW looms on the horizon, tapping into the darkest power is purely instrumental - for revenge. No, Willow remains fundamentally good. If she really lusted after power, why wouldn't she have just gotten this book from the magic box earlier and gone all BMW just for kicks? 'Cause that's not what this is about. But then, I'm preaching to the choir here...



I share people's frustration with the direction the writing has taken this season. Even at the time, the addiction storyline felt like ME's first major misstep in terms of a character arc. Now we have it cruelly confirmed just how futile it really was. Feh. I will be very very curious to hear how Marti, Joss, and co. account for this direction when all is said and done....

[Kamil]

Quote:

---

Oh yes, I too, cannot blame her for what's going to happen. Nor will I blame her once I see it on the screen in all its horrible, bloody, angsty glory. Nor will I judge her, or think that she should be judged.

---

I can't even wrap my head around the concept of judging Willow for what she's going to do. Now mind, this may be because I came into fandom where the entire mytharc of the show was that "The Game" and "There Can Be Only One" were totally valid, completely moral reasons to whack the head off of any passing Immortal, friend, former/current lover, bitter enemy, or passing stranger on the street. David A., Highlander's totally brilliant PTB, always called the show "A Talmudic Discussion; Complete with Ass Kicking." And ya know, I've kinda always felt that way about the Buffy/Angelverse myself.



Mods, this is gonna go OT on you for a minute...or two...but I promise I'll get it back to Willow and her morality issues before I'm done; in fact, the OT'ness is intended as an illustration of how similar characters from totally different universes can mirror one another. At least I hope so. God, I hope.



Highlander's (the teevee show, not the first three movies -- different universes, different rules) primary hero type was Duncan MacLeod -- who I'd think most mirrors the Buffy character. But he also shares a whole lot of WillowIssues. These are people who *want* to do what's right -- but they have so much passion and so much intense desire to 'fix what's wrong' and an occasional, most unfortunate belief that they are the proper person to decide what needs to be done about it. Hence, they sometimes make unfortunate/unescapable choices and then hare off to brood/sulk/ponder the suckage that is their life for a bit. Buffy went to LA after she killed Angel; Duncan went to Malaysia after he whacked Richie; and we're not sure where Willow's gonna go, or if she's even going to need to. But just in case, they all learned things about themselves and the nature of evil, got better and came home again -- changed, but home again.

_____

Ahriman: "I'm a part of you now. Highlander."

Duncan: "You always were."

"Armageddon" Highlander, season six

-----



Willow is and always has been the steady, sensible, occasionally pragmatic anchor -- but she's surely being asked to keep a lot of boats in place right now. The most horrific portion of this is that she's the one most needed an anchor of her own now.



She and Duncan really do need to have a chat and a lot of good whiskey, (a *gen* chat -- **gen**, I tell you! ) -- although they might set a world record for drunken moroseness over all of the people whose deaths they haven't been able to prevent, or in Duncan's case, had to kill outright. Then again, they are both very insightful characters, who keep looking for those clouds and lemonade. So it might really help them both a very great deal to chat -- and did I just feel the teeth of a plot bunny bite me on the ass? Oh. Dear. God. Just what I need -- but ya know, the more I think about it...



Most of Duncan's deeply loved anchors were killed by k'immies trying to draw Duncan out. Shouldn't have been a problem; Duncan's never been one to hide, and he was right where he'd always been...and his loved ones kept right on dying anyway -- at a minimum rate of one per season. Season 1: Darius and Quentin Barnes/Michael Moore -- Season 2: Tessa -- Season 3: Fitz and Brian Cullen (both former lovers-honest ) -- Season 4: Charlie and Sean Bearns -- Duncan killed Sean himself, by the by. Same thing he did with Brian, although for vastly different reasons. *sniffle* He wasn't quite himself at the time he whacked Sean -- but he still has to live with it. Season 5: that scary scene where Duncan was possessed by Ahriman and finally did cut Richie's head right off.



Duncan having been Richie's teacher and surrogate father made that *especially* awful. I'm sure Willow would be large with the comfort and the sympathy from someone who really does understand how devestating having your anchors taken away can be; how it can make you find dark levels inside yourself that you never even suspected were there, just so you can *do* something about all the pain. Look at how Willow's support structure has been damaged in the past six years -- Xander's rejection from back in the day; Oz leaving in such an abrupt, painful fashion; Tara leaving because of something Willow herself did; add Buffy having no interest at all in being back from the grave or her friendship with Willow, in fact, she seems quite vexed about it, and you've got emotional WillowSoup.



And Willow can't even turn to her oldest friends and *her* emotional anchors -- 'cause none of them are (mentally) home, taking calls right now.



I can so easily see Willow's despair leading her down a very dark path -- just as Duncan's did, more than once, but most spectacularly when he was under the influence of the Dark Quickening (think about how different Angel is from Angelus and you'll have the picture needed. Sadly, Evil!Duncan seems to share Angelus' sense of whimsey.



While Duncan was enjoying his trip to the dark side of the moon he managed to kill one of his oldest friends (Sean), and committed various other nasties. And looked really hot while doing so. *weg* And ya know, after Methos managed to not get killed while saving Duncan from his Dark Q (leaving his terminally ill girlfriend in Athens while he hared off to try help Duncan *ahem*), Methos refused to blame Duncan in any way. At all.



None of the other characters in the series blamed Duncan for what happened while he was under the DQ's influence -- except for Richie, and that's probably because Duncan made a *serious* attempt to kill him. After he mocked him with his monkey pants. Richie only lived that day because Duncan's Watcher showed up and shot Duncan five or six times so that Richie could have a chance to escape. And even Richie got over it; after he spent the obligatory few weeks extracting his pound of flesh.



No matter what she does or how many people she kills/is responsible for not saving, I can't imagine the Scoobs not getting past Willow's actions -- fer Pete's sake, Duncan's friends always understood what his motivations were, and he occasionally tried to kill them (kinda caused by the Immortal version of "Oh, as usual, dear."), or had to kill an old friend who'd gone past redemption, no matter how hard Duncan tried to help them.



Shades of Grey, o'plenty.



And it was/is *fascinating, thought-provoking* teevee; watching characters do bad things for good reasons (one of my favorite eps featured a very good friend of Duncan's who'd helped him try and blow up Hitler's compound {forget what year, but before the US came to play} and the plan failed because Ingrid couldn't make herself shoot Hitler as he emerged from the wreckage. See, Ingrid had never taken human life before -- (although she had fought in The Game when challenged) and as a result of her guilt for preventing thousands of deaths she made it her life's goal to travel the world (after spending a bit of time with the Special Ops types), and assassinate potential/active Hitler-wannabes. The ep had her going after a David Duke type -- good in theory, but she couldn't get close enough to the "man", so she decided to blow the building up. Idiot skinhead, white supremacist, brain-dead sorts, along with the bored or indifferent SO types, complete with kids, reporters, and all. And in order to stop her, Duncan had to take her head. I'm also getting the feeling that in order to stop Willow, someone (ahem), will need to help her back in off of the clock tower.



And occasionally, characters that are good now were just flat evil in their pasts.



Methos: "I was Death, Death on a Horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. [...] And it wasn't for greed, it wasn't for vengence, it wasn't for money. It was because I *liked* it." That'd kinda shake your trust in your closest friend, no? Especially after Duncan discovered that one of Methos' early captive/sex slaves just happened to be Duncan's oldest friend as well. Messy, very, very messy.



Willow has nowhere the history of killing and mayhem that Duncan has (well, in fairness he has about 380 years on her -- but hey, he's still hero guy, and it makes sense why he's still hero guy and why the oldest living Immortal (5000 or so) tells him that he's known a lot of Immortals in his 5000 years and of them all, Duncan was the best he'd ever seen. Sound familiar? Dopplegangland, much?



Willow's indiscretion should just be 'covered with flowers' and best forgotten by everyone but Willow, who might want to ponder on her coping with tragedy skills. Or then again, she and Buffy could just be mirror Duncans: They know they're the shepherds, and their job is to kill the bloody wolves.



God, meds kicking in *now* -- hoping that this makes sense. Please, God.

Edited by: DrG at: 4/10/02 12:28:01 pm

[WebWarlock]

Wiccagrrl313,



I would very much like to know all of that too.

I heard the spoilers, but I did not give them any attention really. I mean "kill Tara"?? That would be insane for them to do right?



sigh



I am hoping for a thread this summer, "Wow ME screwed up season 6".

Maybe we will hear some things.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock,
web.warlock@attbi.com

The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/

ShadowEarth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/

Liber Mysterium: the Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

[sparkles]

I understand that Aly didn't wish to sing much in "Once More With Feeling" but I can't help wish she had.



Being the only ep scribed by Joss, I would like to have heard Willow's thoughts in song. Just want some sort of clue as to what the hell is going on from the only person I still trust at ME...

[Traggic Prose]

I was wondering after reading almost all your insightful posts that if we do get a 'RESET' at the end of it all, will it be like a Dallas - JR thing?



Will it mean everything is wipe clean, no one remembers what had occured except for the spellcaster?



or will it be where everything is reversed but Willow, Tara, Buffy, Xanader..etc will retain their memories. If this is so how would Tara feel, respond to Willow going Dark and committing murder/execution on Warren.



For myself, I see Tara would understand the pain Willow was under and how that would affect her. Forgiveness is not an issue for me when it comes to Tara and Willow.



But How would the producer do it? I dont see them doing just a forgive and forget thing. There would be more punishment for going down the Dark path just to show that justice will always be served.



This TV show is watched by people of all ages and that includes children. So even though adults understand and maybe will re-act in vengence to the point of killing, a lesson has still to be taught to the younger viewers. I am sorry say I see more trouble between W and T. but I hope I am wrong..



I am sadden, no not sadden but worried that TPTB might have taken Willow too far this season. I can see the rise in feelings/responses it has caused through out the BTVS communities and this is a good thing in TV terms (Even though for us W/T shippers, these feelings are not welcome at all). It could mean more audiences so maybe even a ew more seasons. But I can't see our old sweet and happy Willow at all the end of this tunnel. Whatever happens during the finale ep. Willow will definately be more GROWN-UP, a more bitter and less caring person. welcome to the adulthood.





As to Tara not returning, I will waiting until the last ep. is aired or spoilers comfirms it, then I will start shouting. But until then JW and co. can still have an ace their can pul.



TP



TP

--------------------------------------------

Willow : I usually don't use so many words to say something so little, but do you get a little?



Tara : I do



Link: To my Xena wallpaper site