Willow Character Study - Discussion

[tommo]

I was going to post these thoughts in the spoiler thread, but after chatting about it with other kittens, it seemed like it deserved its own place. Given the events currently and soon to be unfolding on the show, I think it's important that we look closely at Willow and try to understand how she got from the girl in Season 1 to the girl that we're going to see in Season 6.



What's important about considering Willow here is that the majority of her life has been about The Rules. The go-to-bed-early, brush-your-teeth, do-your-homework, obey-your-parents Rules.



Willow has always had a really clear understanding of these rules. She's always committed herself to the carrying out of them to the letter. To the letter. Deviation from The Rules for her, is always seen as being "bad". Doing something she feels is wrong, doing something that will, eventually, make her a "bad" person.



I think that what we've seen with Willow's maturing role in the show is that she has accepted and integrated these rules into her life. For better or worse. And the heartbreaking result of this is that she's positively broken by them, ultimately.



**



1) - The Family Thing



Willow grew up as an only child in a family who hasn't loved her properly. Her parents have literally ignored her for most of her life, and yet she has strived to fulfil the expectations consciously or unconsciously placed on her, despite the fact that she is aware of the lack of parental contributions to her life.



Makes me grateful that my mom's not interested in my

extra-curricular activities. Or my curricular activities.



Her reward for playing by her parents' familial rules? To be totally ignored by them. To be punished by them (the episode Gingerbread plays this out perfectly.



This is the first time ever I've done something you don't like



Willow's "reward" then, is tainted by the fact that it's not a reward at all. The first time her mother notices her, it's to berate her and punish her. Being a good daughter, it seems, is to be a silent one, one who doesn't live. A daughter who isn't alive in the sense that we recognise, but one who plays by The Rules.



***



2) - The School Thing



Willow is a good student. No, she's not just a good student, she's the best student. She works hard, turns up to school, respects authority figures (even when she knows they're wrong) and excels in every subject she takes. She's playing by The Rules. She's doing what she's supposed to do, surely? The episode Choices plays this out perfectly in that Willow makes a decision to stay in Sunnydale, despite the whole of that episode focusing on the various places around the world where she could potentially study.



But she stays.



Willow: Must be tough. I mean, here I am, I can do anything I want. I can go to any college in the country, four or five in Europe if I want.



Buffy: Please tell me you're going somewhere with this?



Willow: No. (hands Buffy a letter) I'm not going anywhere.



She stays because her sense of loyalty to the "fight between good and evil", and her sense of friendship causes her to give up a glittering future.



Her "reward" for playing by The Rules? UC Sunnydale. Making do. Writing her own curriculum. And a best friend who begins to drift further and further away from her during Season 4. No wonder that Willow herself drifts away from societal codes in Season 4 and brings her to her next trial.



***



3) - The Tara Thing



Tara. Willow's relationship with Tara is possibly the one enlightening feature of her life. Going against these so-called Rules, Willow gets involved with another woman. This time, she lets her heart lead her head, and finds the one thing in her life, possibly, that gives her fulfillment and joy. And peace. I don't need to go into the ramifications of Willow and Tara's relationship because I feel that other people have already said it in numerous threads on this board, and far more eloquently than I can ever do.



However, the main thrust of Season 6 has shown a Willow who breaks rules. Tabula Rasa, Smashed, Wrecked...all these episodes show Willow's backlash against the restrictions placed upon her thus far. The eventual dessimation of her relationship with Tara proves to her that in order to regain the trust and love that she once had, she must go back to The Rules. Those bloody, slow, painful things that held her in place all the way through Seasons 1 - 3.



WILLOW: (firmly) No. I can't. (to Anya) If I start, I ... I might not be able to stop.



And she does it. She does it because she wants to prove that she can be worthy. And in proving herself worthy, Willow has made a conscious effort to return to The Rules, because she knows that that is the only way she'll be able to win Tara back. And her need for that affirmation of a change of behaviour is paramount in the episodes following Wrecked. She's returned to following the codes of society in order to make a statement to her lover. And she does it. She succeeds. Far be it for Willow Rosenberg to fail at anything. She never has before. And this is no different.



TARA: I get it. I-I really do. But it's time to work without the net, Will. (Willow looking anxious) You know, I don't know if you noticed, but it actually did get bad in there. Really bad, and ... and you still said no.



Tara smiles, goes back to her task. Willow slowly begins to smile too.



The eventual reunion of Willow and Tara makes it clear to Willow that by adhering to those rules, she can make things right again. Not with magic, not with running outside of the codes in society, but by following the steps someone else has prescribed. No, by returning to the strict ways of accepted behaviour that formed her teenage years, she feels sure that this time, the reward will be worth the struggle.



So then, what is her "reward"?



Clearly, Willow and Tara reunite. They celebrate their love for one another and make their commitments to the relationship anew. We, as the audience, invested in Willow as a character, get to see her experience the one true happiness in her life.



But that's not all. Nope, not by a long shot.



See, the "reward" brings with it the ultimate punishment. For someone who has realized the error of their ways, and turned back to set things right, there can only be one solution. Tara is taken from Willow again. And this time, it doesn't matter what rules Willow employs, she's not allowed to get her reward. Again, the reward for her is punishment.



***



So what's my point then?



Well, the point is that I can't blame Willow for what she does. I can't blame someone who has been beaten down for most of their lives, been restricted and honest and obedient and conscientious. I can't find it in myself to blame Willow for eventually turning to the darkness. I think that the Tara situation is the turning point in the evolution of her character.



Perhaps the biggest thing Willow ever did was to give up her magic. Perhaps the biggest sacrifice Willow ever made was to apply those life rules to herself once more, and revert back to the kind of person she hoped Tara might want. And in making this sacrifice, what does she get?



She gets punishment. She gets pain. She gets sorrow. Yeah, she gets her heart ripped out in front of her and you know, I can't blame her for wanting to destroy that heart so she never feels anything ever again. I can't blame her for that.



So when you want to blame Willow for what she does, think about The Rules. Think about how everyone else around her gets to break them without repercussions. Think about how Buffy, Xander, Anya and Spike have persistently managed to get away with metaphorical murder. Is it so wrong then, to wonder why Willow can't get away with it literally?



I don't think so.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

Edited by: tommo at: 5/21/02 10:57:30 pm

[urnofosiris]

Amen. I will not sit here in judgement of her. I feel ready to incinerate someone just at the *thought* what is going to happen to *her*. For me there is no question whether Willow is redeemable. None. The only question I have is how will she get through this?



Eventhough I don't think it matters what all the other scoobies have gotten away with, it does bother me highly when Willow seems to be judged more harshly and what the others have done gets explained away or ignored, just to prove how bad Willow is. This is all so very hard to swallow as it is, and Willow will need support, not judgement. Like I said elsewhere, she will need Tara.

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Willow is GAY now and forever. Take it or Leave

[belle]

I also think she's terribly, terribly angry. It's hard to blame her for being angry; the tragic thing is, I think she doesn't *know* how angry she is. Doesn't acknowledge it, anyway.



I think that's what the magic's about, actually: she has a lot of natural talent as a witch, and her intelligence helps, but the sheer force of her, er, will, comes from her bottled-up rage



Looking at "Restless" again, I think that's a big part of what's meant by "they'll find out about you:" Willow believes if she's anything other than the Nice Girl who plays by the Rules, she'll be brutally rejected.



She actually did manage to break a lot of those rules, but the biggest one for a Nice Girl--don't get angry, don't get anyone angry at *you*--she never quite got her head around. Never had a good, air-clearing fight with either of her significant others; the only real fights she had with Oz *or* Tara ended in disaster.



And actually, I think that's why she cast the "forget" spell on Tara: not so much because she was criticizing her magic use, but because she couldn't stand the idea that someone she loved might be angry at her.







.

[LeatherQueen]

Quote:

---

From Xita-

Willow is always expected to be better than everyone else.

---

I totally agree. Willow has always been expected to be "Miss Dependable". Hell, there was a whole episode devoted to this (Doppelgangland). And what happens in the end? Willow feels guilty over the actions of her AU self. In Something Blue, she does a spell that goes awry, and at the end what do we see happening? Horrible guilt and trying to make up for it. Xander does a spell that goes horribly wrong and what happens? Nothing.



There's been a pattern over the episodes where Willow does break a few rules here and there, where we can see this guilt. Even her thoughts make her feel guilty (Wild At Heart) and make her want to "flog and punish".



So... what's my point. I have one somewhere...



Oh yes, I too, cannot blame her for what's going to happen. Nor will I blame her once I see it on the screen in all it's horrible, bloody, angsty glory. Nor will I judge her, or think that she should be judged.



Because after this happens, I don't think our Willow will even exist anymore. Her heart will be broken, her spirit will be broken, and she'll pretty much be dead inside. After that, all she'll have left is her revenge. And once that's done, there won't be anything left for her. Because as loyal as she is, and as much as she loves her friends, I don't think anybody could take this much pain and continue living in any real sense of the word.

--------------------------------


"Honey, I'm the original one-eyed chicklet in the kingdom of the blind." - Glory

[urnofosiris]

Despite the fact that it has apparantly been explained in intricate detail in innumerable posts in another thread I still can't see that what Willow does is worse, bad for sure, but not worse than anything any of the other scoobies have done, but then I am an immoral fool, and judging from this thread I am not the only one.



I don't care whether Giles was more justified in killing Ben because Ben could not be locked up than Willow is in killing Warren because he could have been prosecuted under human US law just because for the first time he happened to pull a plain old gun and not some nifty nerd device to zap and kill and teleport the body to another dimension.



I only care about Willow and Tara.



I think I will go play my harp now.



Oh just look at me, I think I am giving Ruth a run for her money when it comes to bitterness, my keyboard is corroding away as I type, *sigh* I used to be nice, just like Willow. Fortunately I feel better now.

---------------------------



I. Owe. You. PAIN

Edited by: DrG at: 4/8/02 1:53:51 am

[Sela]

I've seen the evolution of Willow. I completely empathize with her. When we were first aquainted with her, she was a social "nobody." Her affiliation with Buffy made her into something she'd never been (as far as her own perception was concerned)--useful. Suddenly, a new world became available to her, one in which her natural intelligence and dedication could actually benefit the entire human race. Of course she was going to immerse herself into that. Of course that would be come her life.



But book and computer smarts could only take her so far. Buffy was the slayer. She was innately prepared to deal with the supernatural forces that threatened to destroy the world. Xander--well, though incredibly normal, also had the advantage of masculine strength and a desire to help, risking both life and limb, to contribute to the cause. Giles--he had authority, bred from years of study and experience. All Willow had was an ability to log on to the internet and find information that might otherwise elude the SG. And while that might have been enough for the SG, it certainly wasn't enough for Willow. She wanted to be more, give more to her friends. And that's when magic came into the picture.



Willow was a natural. Sure, it took her a while to get the gist of it, but the spells came easy to her. We saw so many references to her progression in S5. And more and more, we saw how the Scoobies relied on her abilities to get them out of "jams." THEY spurred her on. THEY practically demanded that she use the magic to help. Yes, it was necessary. But I feel that if we're going to analyze Willow, we need to analyze those around her to understand that they contributed to her addiction. They made it okay for her to continue because they needed an *out.*



Anyway, Willow became more powerful. She had an opportunity to use her magic for selfish purposes with Oz, but she stopped herself because there was no finality to that relationship. It wasn't as if Oz would NEVER come back. The possibility existed. He just might, and that was enough to keep Willow on the right side of magic. Then in S5, Tara had her brain sucked. Willow was "thisclose" to ending in tragedy, but again, Buffy and that little hope that things could get better prevented her from losing it. Now here, in S6, all of the hopes and possibilities have been eliminated. Tara is dead--there's no way she can bring her back. So what reason does she have to stay on the light side? Her lover, her soul mate, the one person who represented all that was good in the world is dead, how else could she react? Yes, the darkness beckons her because that's all that is left. Tara was her light, and she's been extinguished. It makes absolute sense that she would resign herself to a world of darkness. I don't blame her. I don't judge her. And in fact, I completely understand her.



Her loyalty to the SG has ALWAYS been unwavering. She's felt responsible for them, even put her own safety to ensure theirs. But the rules have changed. Willow is fed up. She's tired of the sacrifices she's had to make for everyone else. She's lost everything that means anything to her. I mean, yeah, she has Buffy back, but is it really Buffy? The Buffy that was her best friend? No, because she, too, is filled with darkness. And Xander? He dumped his fiance because he was afraid that he might end up ruining her life and his own. He, too, has embraced the darkness, though in his own way. So, I totally see how Willow could've come to this. I don't like it. But I get it. And I won't ever look down upon her for it.



Willow will always be the most important character in BTVS for me. Whether she's logging on trying to find info about a demon or using dark magick to exact revenge on the person that stole her love away from her, I will ALWAYS support her. That may just be my very long-winded opinion, but I'll stand by it.



--Sela

[sundae]

I agree that "the rules" have always played heavily in Willow's life. The rules, however, are externally controlled. People follow the rules so as to look good and be respected within society. When Willow dated Oz, she often pointed out that she was "dating a musician"- which made her worthy in the eyes of her group. Her magic also started as a way to be useful (therefore accepted) within her group.

Tara added a new dimension to Willow's character. The fact that at first Willow strove to keep the relationship a secret shows that choosing to love Tara was a result of Willow's internal moral compass.

It wasn't about having her " musician boyfriend" anymore; this was about love, and about Willow coming into her own as an individual. The magic, however, IMHO, has always been about acceptance and external factors.

What the upcoming "Tara dies and Willow goes bad magic" story arc is trying to show, I think, is that if Willow is going to be an actualized person, she must give up her unhealthy magic practices for herself and no one else. ME tends to stress that people must change for themselves, not to gain acceptance (for example, Spike's redemtion story arc).

So (not that I agree with this) they seem to be taking away Tara so that Willow will have to make descisions for internal reasons, not to win back Tara. This is obviously a poor way to go about doing this. Do people usually have to die for people to "grow up?"

Anyway, I could be seeing this completely wrong. I guess we won't REALLY know what this means for the character of Willow until the episodes air.

[Willowlicious]

I agree completely that Willow is held to an impossibly high standard compared to the other Scoobs and that her punishments have vastly outweighed her "crimes" over and over again.



Willow makes my heart ache. No one else on the show has given so much and tried so hard. No one else has been hurt so badly. Not even remotely. Buffy's trials and hurts all come from her role as the Slayer. Yes, she has had some major pain come her way, but there has always been a sense of purpose and duty under her sacrifices that make them ultimately worthwhile. Her life sucks, but everyone recoginizes and lauds her as a hero. That in itself is solace. Willow, on the other hand, has labored in obscurity within and without the Scoobies. She's given everything she has to the world around her, not because she is The Chosen One, but because she simply chose. Chose to do the right thing, chose to help others, chose to be loyal, chose to be the good daughter, chose to be the good friend. She has been rewarded with indifference, disdain and outright cruelty...even by her friends. Especially by her friends.



I once posted after "Wrecked" aired that when Willow was lying on the ground begging for help and forgiveness after she hurt Dawn, I was literally yelling at the TV screen. I was yelling to Buffy to turn her re-animated butt around and go help her friend. The friend who has given up everything for Buffy's cause and for Buffy's love and has gotten so little in return. In my mind, if anyone deserved mercy and forgivenes at that moment, it was Willow. Willow deserves everything in my book. I will forgive her anything, because she has already proven herself to me over and over again.



This storyline breaks my heart. It hurts me that the writers are being so cruel to this gentle, loyal, beautiful, loving character. My objections to her killing Warren and going after Jonathan and Andrew have nothing to do with whether I think they deserve it or not (they do). I object because it's another cruelty placed on Willow. Willow is not a murderer. This is the woman who refused to help kill the Indian warrior in Pangs because she felt sorry for him even though he meant her harm. She felt sorry for Spike even though he was trying to murder her! I feel like the writers are like terrorists who capture some poor soul and torture them mercilessly until the victim will say or do anything just to stop the pain. It is no reflection on who they truly are, just a reflection on how much pain has been inflicted on them.



Willow is not a murderer. She is not evil. She has just been tortured beyond hope and reason and wants the pain to stop. I agree that her actions are a suicide run.



I don't blame her. I will never blame her. I mourn for her.



Amy

[Wiccagrrl313]

I think everyone is making some great points here. And I do think Willow has tried very hard over her life to follow the rules, to be very seldom naughty. Until the magick began to give her a sense that she didn't have to necessarilly follow the rules. But that didn't work out for her, cause at heart she still cared about the people around her and so she tried again to follow the rules. Will get Tara back...and lose her again. In the most horrible and senseless way possible. And then, well, screw the rules. Seriously this time.



I guess my question would be "Why???" Where are the writers going with this? Where do they want this character to get to? They've shown that just following the rules for their own sake doesn't get ya very far. They, I assume, are showing that throwing the rule book out the window isn't the best course of action either. What do they want from Willow?

They've kind of put her in a damned if ya do/damned if ya don't situation. So, where's the salvation? Where's the way out of this trap? Do they want her to test her own moral compass? To figure out *why* the rules are the rules (or at least what her boundaries are?) Do they even care about the character at this point? Is it just counterpoint to Buffy's journey? Showing what happens when someone does crack?

Where are they going with this?

Tracy

******************


VILLOV

I troost yuu. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp!

[urnofosiris]

Damn Amy, you almost made me cry, and I never cry. I am a bastard. Please in future have some consideration for my reputation.

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I. Owe. You. PAIN.

[xita]

Yes, they have put Willow through things no real person and certainly no fictional character need suffer to bring her to this point. And maybe that is the point that we all have a breaking point, because Willow is the easiest to identify to. That if the things that we care about are shattered than maybe we too would give up. It's an interesting concept you know but using Willow to show it, kinda hurts. Maybe they could use Xander, but Xander didn't maybe have such a clearly defined morality, like Willow. And to be honest, I don't think Xander cares about things in the same intense passionate way Willow does. Willow loves her friends, her lovers, Tara. Intensely. And I guess that makes the heartbreak even more unsettling. Did they have to go there? No. I just want them to make it better.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Everything is turning out so dark..."

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"

[Sarabie317]

I don't feel that Willow has been quite the straight-and-narrow, shy little rule-following character that is often suggested. The rules she follows are her own. A few examples:



1) Willow was a hacker from day one. Broke into databases she was not supposed to access, and decrypted them. Hacking is against society's rules.



2) Willow did not allow her parents (or anyone else) to stop her from involvement in witchcraft. (see my resolved face?)



3) Willow has always been outspoken - always willing to say what's on her mind, even to authority figures and vampires - even when it could get her in trouble.



4) Willow initiated much of the progression of her relationship with Oz.



5) She has always seemed to be the natural 2nd-in-command of the SG. That takes recognition of her leadership.



6) Her recognition of her homosexuality didn't seem to phase her. We didn't see her struggling with any of it, at least not within herself (although she was concerned about her friends' acceptance). What we saw was Willow getting to know Tara, finding that she has special feelings for Tara, and pursuing the relationship. Once again, Willow does what she feels is right for Willow.



I don't think that Willow has lacked self-respect. Although she was abused at the hands of Cordelia, etc., Willow always seemed to know who and what she is and valued herself for her own qualities. The geek mindset is different from the non-geek mindset. Geeks are far more interested in mental pursuits than social position. She was thrilled to arrive at UCS, where her academic prowess would be nourished and appreciated.



With next-to-no parental involvement, Willow pretty much raised herself. She established her own values and rules. She thinks for herself. Her excellence in school was not necessarily due to her parents' expectations - it was a natural expression of who Willow really is.



Having said all of that, I will also say that I agree that Willow is held to a higher set of standards than the other characters. But I think that Willow sets those high standard for herself. I tend to agree with Buffy when she told Willow she was the strongest person there. I've never really seen Willow as anything but brilliant, strong and courageous.

[tommo]

I want them to make Willow better. I want the magic healing hands of scriptwriting to put back the pieces of her heart together and please, for the love of god, stop her feeling so shitty.



She feels so responsible for everything, all the time. It's always her fault. She takes so much on herself and wants to please others and what does she get for her efforts?



Quite frankly, she gets the shaft. In a very real, very visceral, very horrid way. Tara doesn't just leave, she dies. Tara doesn't just go away from Willow, she ends up in a place where Willow can't follow. Unless she does the whole "magical self destruct" thing. God, being in love with someone and knowing how your whole life is just better with them in it really makes me weep for her.



I don't understand this. Is this supposed to make me feel joy that my girlfriend isn't going to get shot in the back? Is it supposed to make me feel that I'm the lucky one because I have someone in my life who turns everything into panoramic, stereo sound color? Cuz you know what, it doesn't. All it does is make me feel so much pain for Willow, because the thought of a life without the one you truly love is essentially not a life at all.



All her life, Willow has been cheated out of the things she wants most; her education, Xander, Oz, her magic, and now Tara. And damn, that's so unfair. It's just so unfair.



So it's a double death for me, I'm afraid. The second that Tara dies; that's the moment that I think Willow as we know her will cease to exist. And god, I can't blame her for that.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[FriskyLez]

Wow the insight everyone has into Willows character is amazing..I cant add anything to what you have all said, it has all been said with love and understanding regarding the events about to bring Willow to the brink..I will add only this, i relate to Willow because she has an addiction she is trying to overcome in order to keep the one she loves...I relate to Tara in giving up the one you love because of their addiction..Ive seen their relationship from both sides..



Im a recovering alcoholic who has been sober 12 years and it hasnt been an easy 12 years..Bad things happened, the worst was having to let my soulmate go because of her drug addiction, she chose drugs over being with me..I was only recently sober when that happened and i could have said puck this and gone back to drinking, but i didnt, i held on..Telling myself if i take that drink, i cant go back and reclaim those years, i have to start all over again...For me, I would never be able to start over again, I know how i am...Id be very much like Willow is in the final episodes, past the point of no return..Down that path of self destruction..



You bet i understand and forgive Willow..How much must a human being be forced to put up with..Eventually you just let loose with all the fury, angst, pain, despair, hopelessness and unhappiness you have in you and you just dont give a sh**..I think, no i know that is the point at which Willow loses it and goes on her "bender" so to speak..Would i go there if all thats happened to W/T happened to me, youre damn right i would...

Carpe Noctem

[Rally]

I also feel that some how, the fact that Willow at least deviates from her revenge to save Buffy, will be highly significant. With the writers trying to say either, there is some shred of Willow the best friend left despite her blind rage. Or Willow realizes that Buffy is the only person that may stand a chance of stopping her.



It is also incredibly ironic that Warren believes Willow is after him for shooting Buffy. I wonder what his reaction will be when he finds out about Tara and this probably ties into the "resurrection" of Katrina.



Either way it is going to be truly ugly. I really hope that all the non W/T shippers that keep going on about how cool it's going to be seeing Willow embrace the dark side, feel the pain as much as we do.



This is not VampWillow, this is not the humor of Dopplegandland, this is one mightily pissed off witch who no longer has a reason to live.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[AutumnT]

You know I wish I had something brilliant to add at this point. I don't right now, but I do want to applaud the thoughts and care being put behind them here. You've captured what I feel for this character and why I love her so very much and feel for her. I'll be back later when I have something to add. But thanks for starting this thread and thanks to those who have taken the time to participate. I need this.

Autumn

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I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation

[Ari]

It's an interesting point that Willow is not only expected to be good, she's expected to be better than everyone else.



That was part of the whole 'dependable people' discussion from Smashed, wasn't it? That people who feel so compelled to follow the rules are the ones who go completely out of control when they step outside the lines. I think it has to do with seeing the world in a very black and white kind of way. It's either good or bad, right or wrong. And if you try so hard, over and over and over again, to be right and good and it doesn't seem to do you any good at all, then when you reach your breaking point the result is to abandon all the rules.



After all, the rules haven't seemed to do you any good, so screw 'em all and do whatever you want to. What's the difference?



All or nothing.





Ari

[Rally]

Quote:

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Warlock:



They wont. I have read the usenet where the Pro-Dark Willow faction leaves their slime trail. These are the same people that gave us the "Tara's Lesbian Spell on Willow" thread. They won't get it and I doubt that they will even understand the irony of getting exactly what they wanted. We will see posts like "It's Tara's fault that DarkWillow is dead." Trust me. This of course is not all people on the Usenet, but rather a loud voiced minority. Actually I could even pin it down to who will post it, but I won't here. No point.

---

Yes I am all too familiar with the factions on usenet as well. Also the occassional posters to the Cross and Stake and other forums that shall remain nameless.



There are far too many people chiming in on how wonderful it is going to be to see this...in a season where everyone is crying foul about the writers. They then turn this event into, oh the writers are finally giving us what we want to see.



I cannot imagine anyone wanting to see this, even the most idiotic troll. Early in the season when we viciously fought off the BSD rumors. I had non W/T friends whispering oh, they making Tara more important to make the impact of her death more of a loss.



This has been truer than I had dared to believe. A lot of fans have now come forward with their distaste for losing Tara who is finally coming into her own.



Again, it is just absolutely senseless. You could say oh, Joyce's death was to shock Buffy into action, just as Tara's death will be to push Willow to that next level. But that is just not true, Joyce's death was hinted at for a long time leading up to the events.



Tara on the other hand will be heavily featured in 18 and 19 and then unless there are small things in the script that we do not yet know about...this will definitely be the light at the end of the tunnel, that is in fact a train.



Perhaps this is why those lousy tvguide write ups may leak Tara's death in advance. I do not know, I just know that I cannot feel sorry enough for anyone not knowing that this is going to happen.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[tommo]

Quote:

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I just know that I cannot feel sorry enough for anyone not knowing that this is going to happen.

---

Rally, I hear you. I think my sorrow over this whole thing is in part empathy for the poor unspoiled fans who are going to see this cold. I've known about this for a few weeks now, and I'm still coming to terms with the fact that the troughs and peaks of this relationship are unfathomably high and desperately low. I can't imagine what it will be like for those people who are taken through the reunion of Willow and Tara only to have the rug pulled from under their feet.

Quote:

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Again, it is just absolutely senseless. You could say oh, Joyce's death was to shock Buffy into action, just as Tara's death will be to push Willow to that next level. But that is just not true, Joyce's death was hinted at for a long time leading up to the events.

---

It's true that you could justify Joyce's death like that. But you know, Tara is Willow's link to the good things in life. Just as Joyce provided a sense of normality in the "real" world, so Tara provides the purity of Willow's sense of self. She represents everything good and loving and reassuring. The thing that depresses me the most is that Willow's never had this in her life before. If she'd had a supportive home life and friends who didn't drift in and out of her existence, then perhaps this might not hurt so much. But it does; it really does.



I feel resentful. I feel angry at Buffy and Xander for not being the kind of friend to Willow that she has been to them. I feel angry that they haven't supported her in the way that she supported them. I feel angry most of all, that the one constant in her life is being ripped away from her. If anything, Tara's death doesn't just push Willow on to the next level, it completely rewrites the level and makes a new one. There's no justification for what the writers are doing to Willow, other than "big drama" or "lesbian tragedy".



Today, somebody tried to explain the situation to me by telling me that everyone in life goes through these kinds of things. That losing Tara, for Willow, is an example of the tragedy that everyone experiences at some point in their life.



But you know what? That's bullshit. It's all bull. If the writers are trying to insist that there is always hope, then I'm failing to understand that. When you've been cheated for all of your life and that's just consolidated in the worst way possible, where's the hope there? What other conceivable choice does Willow have? This isn't a question of "Willow choosing to go bad". It's merely a result of a lifetime of pain. And whatever happens at the end of the season, I'm not sure I can bring myself to forgive Joss and his writers for that.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

Edited by: tommo at: 4/8/02 12:48:42 pm

[Popje]

Well I think folks are getting a "Dark" Willow confused with an "Evil" Willow. Her upcoming actions are “bad”, and some would argue wrong, but when considered in the context of the violent and monster/magic laden universe of BtVS, they don’t seem evil. Instead, it fits within the mythic context that the Scoobs have been operating in. Based on spoilers she’s not going around doing evil for evils sake. Her actions seem much more “Old Testament” – an eye for an eye. Or Shylock’s “a pound of flesh.” Or what I see is the plot seems based on Revenge drama, which has been around for a very long time. In fact it was a very popular narrative in Elizabethan times. Heroes had bad “sh&t” go down (often violent death of a loved one), so they go a little nuts and then they come up with a really awful-good plan and go after their enemies to exact revenge. Of course this being Buffyverse the writers love to make things queasy and ambiguous. Elizabethan heroes had that too. You wanted them to succeed in punishing the bad guys, but you have difficulty condoning their actions, because they go to extremes.



What may we have as a result of all this? Well I’d like to see the result will be a Willow that doesn’t always play by the rules. But perhaps the mental equilibrium will return in some way. I don’t think she will conform her opinion to that of the group any more. She’ll be more a dark Batman vs. Buffy’s Superman. Although not played up much, Giles is a character like this. Remember Tara points to Giles in the Gift and says “you’re a murderer”? Giles has had a dark past and will kill humans (sic Ben) when a purpose is served.



popje

[Dave V]

Thanks, Tommo, for starting this thread. Everyone's posts are so thoughtful.



Earlier in the season we were discussing Willow's "hitting bottom." How naive I was in thinking that Willow losing Tara and going to Rack was hitting bottom!



Way back then, people had already described Willow in the same terms as soldiers or pilots who have seen too much combat.



In light of what will happen to Tara, I also cannot blame Willow for her subsequent actions. As Bob has said, Willow has gone though this arc already. What more is there for her to learn, other than learning exactly what her breaking point is? Everyone has a breaking point. It is a tribute to her character that Willow has actually lasted so long fighting the good fight. What will she have gained by the end of ep 20 - just madness and despair.



How do the writers contemplate bringing back someone recognizable as Willow after all this pans out?

[VampNo12]

I have a question that has been bothering me since we found out all about these evil Willow spoilers, what was the whole point to the magic addiction arc? I mean if the writers wanted Willow to go in this direction why not do it in the beginning of the season when they could of made it into some a need/craving for power. They clearly could of gone that route especially with the things she said to Giles when he questioned her use of magic.



To me they could of achieved this evil Willow goal without going through all this destruction and pain (ie. the senseless murder of Tara). If they went in the direction of power corrupts I could see the point of having this message relayed to the audience by showing Willow becoming dark without the Tara death. But instead we have the message that if you have a problem, and solve it (going on the magic wagon) your reward is a moment of bliss (return of your soulmate), but than we will punish you by taking her away for good. Is this really the message ME wants to send to their audience that by doing the right thing the only reward is bad consequences.

[WebWarlock]

Because the writters have become creatively and morally bankrupt.

They are out of ideas and have painted themselves in a corner. They are going back on promises not to invoke old cliches because they can't think of anything else OR they are bowing to the lowest common denominator for ratings.



Or they have been replaced by pods.



Either way the show is no longer resembling the show I fell in love with.



How's that Ruth, am I reaching your level of bitter yet?

-----

Web Warlock,
web.warlock@attbi.com

The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/

ShadowEarth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/

Liber Mysterium: the Netbook of Witches and Warlocks

[Rally]

The more I think on this, the more angry I get. So I apologize for my continued rants, but I need to work this over a bit more.

Quote:

---

Ruth:



Today, somebody tried to explain the situation to me by telling me that everyone in life goes through these kinds of things. That losing Tara, for Willow, is an example of the tragedy that everyone experiences at some point in their life.

---

It's not a tragedy, but a travisty.



I have tried to be as upbeat as possible that in the end, all things will be made right. After all it's the journey and not the destination that counts.



Well f*ck that, what is this journey telling us? Or doing for us and for Willow for that matter. This is growing up?



God knows I have learned many a painful lesson in my life, I have been through times when I thought I was on my best behavior as a human being. Only to have the thing I loved the most ripped senselessly from me.



I have been through that in real life. It's painful, 8 months later it still grieves me. I do not need to be put through this to see how fictional characters react or over react to this type of pain.



I am quite certain that most of you probably feel the same.



It is really hard to take the high road and say it's because Willow is the most complex character. Or that Aly is the best actress on the show. It is really hard right now getting my head around the fact that this happens to Willow.



Sorry for yet another rant.

------------


"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[AutumnT]

Seriously do you think this story line is for ratings? Because I can't see people getting too excited about it. Buffy is a hard show to break into because of all its continuity and seasonal arcs. I seriously doubt all this is some ratings stunt. And while I do not yet know the reasons and while when I do I may never agree with them, I am certainly not ready to call the writing staff morally bankrupt. Those are pretty strong words. Even from a bitter person.

Autumn

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I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation

[tommo]

Web Warlock, you learn fast. The bitterness is strong in you...



Okay, Evil Willow vs Dark Willow. Not a question or discussion to be had in here. The rampage Willow goes on in the aftermath of Tara's death has little to do with "evil" or "darkness". It's to do with having no concern for her own life anymore. The best part of her whole existence has been taken away from her, so I'm assuming that she doesn't see the point in being Willow anymore. The fact that she uses dark magic as a means to eradicate Willow from her own self is just a method. That's all. Doesn't make her evil. Doesn't make her bad. It makes her more human than the whole rest of the friggin' cast of characters.



And when I think about Willow, I always come up with the idea that she's human. She's prey to the human frailties that we all feel, to one extent or another. Her reaction to Tara's death is just an extension of this, and it's her way of dealing with it.



Honestly, I see "Dark Willow" as a metaphorical symbol of what's left without Tara in her life. And what is left? Well, just pain and suffering and shite. That's what.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[Rally]

Yes I agree with Ruth, Willow's use of dark magic is just the mean to end. Similar to big techno murdered Warren turning away from his geek infested roots to suddenly showing up at Buffy's house with a gun.



Both acts are similarly illogical. Willow's is illogical because she lost Tara the first time to magic. Should Willow respect Tara's wishes and not take her revenge using magic? Hell no, it's an irrational act by a woman who has lost everything in her life that has real meaning.



Just as the techno murderer loses his composure when his techno co murderers are thrown in jail. Warren loses his final grip on reality and turns to a gun.

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"Everyone's getting spanked but me."

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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Today, somebody tried to explain the situation to me by telling me that everyone in life goes through these kinds of things. That losing Tara, for Willow, is an example of the tragedy that everyone experiences at some point in their life

---

Well I sincerely hope that having your lover senselessly blown away is not a tragedy everyone will experience. Sure if you live long enough you will encounter tragedy, loss, but Willow is 20 years old. She already has 'experienced' more death and pain than most people do in a lifetime. And this is beyond all reason. Honestly, I see no excuse for this storyline. None. Willow isn't evil, these spoilers are.

---------------------------



Willow is GAY now and forever. Take it or leave.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, I find myself desperately trying to make sense of this- to not believe that the writers have just totally run out of ideas, and are scraping the bottom of the barrel. But I am having a hard time imagining any kind of conclusion that would make sense of all this.

Tracy

******************


VILLOV

I troost yuu. Hurty flurty schnipp schnipp!

[xita]

god, reading this i just got angrier. Someone asked earlier why anyone would vow to not watch Firefly. I tell you, I would. I really actually have already and any future Joss Whedon show. You know why? Cause my trust has been violated. I can't trust this man or his company to do right by the characters. How can I get involved in the future knowing what they are capable of, for whatever reason. I am involved in this, I can't turn my back, but I have a choice in the future. And they have lost me as a viewer, costumer etc.



What Willow is going through is unecessary. Why would I knowingly put myself through this again in the future. Get involved with their characters again? NOT bloody likely.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Everything is turning out so dark..."

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"