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Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

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Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby BBOvenGuy » Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:32 am

Given what we've been through with Willow and Tara, I thought I'd try to give us all a little perspective. We have a lot of "old timers" here, but we also have a lot of people who didn't start watching Buffy until after Willow and Tara were an established couple.

So... all you old folks out there... here's your chance to reminisce. Can you recall a time...


  • When you saw Tara in "Hush" and then had to wait for weeks before the Floating Rose scene?
  • When everywhere you looked, people denied that anything was going on between Willow and Tara?
  • When Joss first said that Willow and Tara had a romantic relationship, everyone said, "Oh, you know Joss... he's always lying."
  • When nobody knew how many episodes there were in Amber's contract for the season? For all you knew, she'd never be seen again?
  • When you heard Oz was coming back, and you assumed that was the end of Tara?
  • When you logged into your favorite posting board the first time after "New Moon Rising," and you couldn't believe how many people were posting viscious anti-Tara venom?
  • When you couldn't go to the Kitten Board for refuge, because there was no Kitten Board?

Just a few seeds of contemplation for you. Even though Willow and Tara are having their troubles this season, consider what a miracle it is that they have a relationship to get in trouble. What's going on now is beyond the wildest dreams a lot of people had just two short years ago. Think about it.

Anyone else?

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited January 03, 2002).]

BBOvenGuy
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby ~KISMIC~ » Thu Jan 03, 2002 12:43 am

A world without the Kitten Board *shuddders* Ooh thank God Australia got the episodes much, much later!

*~Kristy~*

------------------
"Do you love her?"-Willow
Tara stroked a hand over
Willows cheek. "Not
like I love you," she
whispered..."Not yet."

~KISMIC~
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby AutumnT » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:02 am

I'm so glad I wasn't hanging out on the Buffy boards when all that was going on. I was just at home KNOWING something was going on between those girls without having to deal with any negativity and rejoicing when my feelings were vindicated. And I'm also very glad to have found this place when I did.

Autumn
Remembering "Willow's not driving stick anymore" fondly

AutumnT
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Wolfie » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:22 am

I managed to miss the venom on the posting boards by a whisker, I guess. I'm really glad, 'cause, without the Kitten board, and with some of the remarks that were apparently being made elsewhere, I think I'd have gone "ooh, a Buffy board - oh, my God, what jerks" and never come back, so I am really glad that a few rabid egits didn't spoil what has been a fantastic experience Life without the Kitten board would be hollow, dull, dreary, without reason. I'm sure I'd have just gone about, walking into trees, or something.
Wolfie
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby xita » Thu Jan 03, 2002 2:21 am

Oh yes, the good ole days, when Joss joking about how floating the rose was not a euphemism for lesbian sex but that he had one he was hoping would become part of the vernacular (not driving stick anymore), was not enough proof they were doing it.

The stress, I'd been teased by other shows and this was such a slow build up I had no reason to believe it would happen. I totally expected to be let down. I was so sure after Hush that Tara would never show again, I felt Doomed proved my point, but I looked for her again in "A New Man." Luck would have it my brother would interrupt me and I had to read on USEnet that Tara had appeared again. Bob, I just checked, it was from Dec. 14th - Jan 25th. That is a long freaking wait.

xita
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby kitten scout » Thu Jan 03, 2002 5:14 am

I love season 4. After seeing Amber in Hush, I would really pay attention to the opening credits to see if her name was listed. When it was, I just knew it was going to be an episode worth watching!
kitten scout
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby fell » Thu Jan 03, 2002 5:44 am

I firmly believed that there was a lesbian storyline in the offing for Willow after seeing "Doppelgangland." Not that i'm prescient, it just seemed to fit perfectly with Joss's m.o. with foreshadowing. Well, it could have turned out to be wishful thinking, but i didn't think he'd drop such a broad hint without following through. For a while i was wondering if Willow would develop a doomed obsession for Buffy, though i never thought they'd make the star of the show gay (if only!) and there is only so far they can go with Willow (as in the current arc) because, beyond Buffy, she's been the most important character on the show since Angel left.

When S4 began and Willow was still with Oz i started to wonder, then the rumors about Seth Green asking to opt out of his contract started.

The whole W/T arc has consistently met or exceeded my expectations except for a period in S5 where they actually seemed to be downplaying their couple-ness and were unnaturally undemonstrative in some scenes that seemed to call for them to show their affection.

As for the anti-Tara rhetoric, especially the personal attacks, i was shocked, amazed, and deeply offended. I think that in the end they have won over vast numbers and done a world of good for open-minded people everywhere.

[This message has been edited by fell (edited January 03, 2002).]

fell
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby tyche » Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:17 am

Ah, I'm not nostalgic for those days at all. Of course, the W/T chemistry was completely wonderful, but the hatred some people were spouting on assorted posting boards nearly ruined it for me. (Actually, I posted something about W/T on another board last week, and got a couple of downright hilarious "Willow is straight and always will be!" replies, which kind of reminds me why I rarely post anything about W/T on boards other than the Kitten.)
I remember being really militant and fierce about W/T in those days, b/c the hatred people had for Tara and W/T really made me angry. Now, I just think that, if somebody doesn't appreciate such a wonderful 'ship, then it's their loss.
And Bob, have the W/O shippers stopped stalking you yet? Scary... *shudder*

------------------
Good God, that's a lot of shake!

tyche
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Kalita » Thu Jan 03, 2002 11:56 am

quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
(Actually, I posted something about W/T on another board last week, and got a couple of downright hilarious "Willow is straight and always will be!" replies, which kind of reminds me why I rarely post anything about W/T on boards other than the Kitten.)

How anyone who's seen "Tabula Rasa" could be that dense is beyond me...

Granted, I never visit any other Buffy boards, so I guess I can't speak for the rest of the world.quote:

Kalita
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Dave V » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:23 pm

Bob, I was around for the original Tara bashing, and was appalled at some of the so-called "fans." Personal attacks on Amber?! It's great how much support Amber (and Tara) now has.

Tyche, Kalita - yeah, even now there are people on other boards spouting the "Willow is a ruler - straight" stuff. The Kitten Board is now the only Buffy posting board I regularly look at.

Dave V
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby BBOvenGuy » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:39 pm

Oh yes, how could I have neglected to mention all the "Tara is evil" rumors that ran rampant in Season 4...?

"Tara's really a demon. Look how she hid that 'find the demon' powder."

"Willow's really straight. Tara just put a 'lesbian spell' on her." (Really ironic in the wake of the forget spell this year.)

"Tara's going to put a spell on Oz and kill him when he comes back. That's how evil she is."

Yeesh. It wasn't pretty.

BBOvenGuy
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby tyche » Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:55 pm

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Oh yes, how could I have neglected to mention all the "Tara is evil" rumors that ran rampant in Season 4...?

"Tara's really a demon. Look how she hid that 'find the demon' powder."

"Willow's really straight. Tara just put a 'lesbian spell' on her." (Really ironic in the wake of the forget spell this year.)



Oh, I'm convinced Joss has a lot of fun playing around with all of the hysterical reaction that happened in S4. I mean, making Tara sing a song called 'Under Your Spell' when people were saying she'd cast a lesbian spell on Willow? Making Tara's nasty family say she's a demon? Basically, he's mocking the folks who said Tara was evil/a demon/a three-headed snot monster in disguise. And I don't blame him a bit.

------------------
Good God, that's a lot of shake!
quote:

tyche
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Wiccagrrl » Thu Jan 03, 2002 4:22 pm

Yeah, I was there for all of that. And saw a lot of the venom at the Bronze and elsewhere. But also saw the budding of this wonderful relationship and Amber become the epitome of grace under fire. So...they were the best of times, they were the worst of times.
Wiccagrrl
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby AutumnT » Thu Jan 03, 2002 4:31 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
and Amber become the epitome of grace under fire.

Boy she was, wasn't she? When I read her posts at the bronze I was pretty damn impressed with the woman. I'm glad most of the time her name is there now it is quickly followed by "is a hottie".

[This message has been edited by AutumnT (edited January 03, 2002).]quote:

AutumnT
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Superstar » Sat Jan 05, 2002 3:25 pm

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
We have a lot of "old timers" here, but we also have a lot of people who didn't start watching Buffy until after Willow and Tara were an established couple.

Well put. If the "old timers" don't mind, this newbie has a question. I am curious...didn't all these (understandably) dissapointed Willow/Oz 'shippers know that Seth Green wanted out of the show, and that this was why the relationship was coming to an end? I've heard about all this venom directed at Tara, even though the breakup wasn't her fault, was no one mad at Seth? Or, if they needed to be mad at a character, Veruca? Somebody fill me in here, please.

quote:

Superstar
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Jan 05, 2002 3:48 pm

I can field this one.

No, there was no resentment against Seth Green. Any suggestion that Oz was being written out of the show because Seth Green wanted to leave got you flamed, and flamed royally. There was a pretty huge wall of angry denial around the whole thing - suggestions that Seth didn't really want to leave, that Joss was just saying that because he was trying to be "politically correct" with Willow and Tara, etc. Even now there are people who still think Oz is going to come back, as the flap that was raised over the Halloween episode demonstrated.

At one point Joss even posted at the Bronze reminding viewers that Seth had wanted to leave, and it did no good. It was a pretty funny post, though. I don't remember it exactly, but it went something like, "For those of you who say there's no way a person would turn gay after losing Oz, I'll have you know that when Seth left I turned gay and so did half the crew, so in your face."

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)

BBOvenGuy
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby miss_spangles » Sat Jan 05, 2002 6:23 pm

I'm an aussie too - I'd heard whispering etc. that something was going to happen with Willow and her new friend after "Hush" etc. and then, after "New Moon Rising" aired in the US a mailing list I was on (it was actually a Xena mailing list - I'd take any little piece of subtext that Rob Tappert would through my way back then) totally exploded with dozens and dozens of posts about Willow. I'd seen vamp willow etc, so i'd always hope they'd do something with Willow and I was just overjoyed when they did. She was always my favourite character. And being in Australia, I was fortunate that the Kitten board, etc. had been formed and was waiting for me
miss_spangles
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby judy » Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:16 am

Ahhhh... Season 4... the agony... the exquisite torture... the trolls... the triumph...

I remember watching HUSH and my eyebrows shooting straight up to the moon at the sight of Willow and Tara clasping hands in the famous soda machine scene. I remember racing to the Bronze (where I used to post quite frequently) to see if anyone else had caught "it" and actually (in all fairness) there was a small crew of Bronzers whose subtextual hearts were aflutter...

I remember coming home one Saturday night and seeing several emails telling me to check out the Bronze coz Joss had paid a visit full of sapphic goodness. And that's when the shit really hit the fan. I still cannot believe the masses of fans who were convinced he was lying and joking when the post oozed rare but real sincerity about the storyline. It just got uglier... the long wait for the rose floating ep... the people bleating endlessly about how Willow is straight or it's just a phase or Tara is a stalker etc.

I remember the clashing and ludicrous "spoilers" (anyone remember the one that said that Tara would end up falling for Xander??? -- as well as the ones people have already mentioned). I remember battling all over the Internet about sexuality and arguments over the storyline being "out of character" etc. etc. I remember dashing to the computer Sunday AM to wait impatiently for the Wildfeed and my ecstasy over the "WAY" wildfeed report. I remember finding the W/T email list and then making my way to chat where some of the old timers and I spent hours dissecting and discussing every blink, sigh, camera angle, line, etc. of Willow and Tara's. I remember reading Doug Petrie's article where he talked explicitly about W/T as a couple and the writers wanting to avoid lesbian stereotypes -- I must've read that thing a million times just to assure myself that it wasn't a dream.

I remember the roller coaster ride of it all -- one minute believing that W/T would become maintext and the next minute girding myself for bitter disappointment and historic betrayal. I remember how astounded I was that there were still idiots who didn't understand Flaming O or "I am you know."

OK, getting tired so flash forward... I was appalled and sickened by the Bronze after NMR aired. I was giddy with joy and nothing could have deflated me as effectively as all the venomous posts. I took refuge with all the kitties (who weren't kitties then since there wasn't a board but you know what I mean).

Also I remember how MUCH Joss visited the Bronze in that period. He talked so much and a good portion was about W/T and I was so gratified that he cared so deeply about the characters and the storyline and felt it important enough to speak up to fans. I loved his blunt and funny posts post-NMR.

What an intense, wacky, and dramatic period that was! And here we are, battle scarred troopers, world weary, and still purring...

EDITED TO ADD:

I remember Bob and I tag teaming in debates at the Cross and Stake Board (which I don't visit anymore).

I remember emailing and harrassing webmasters of certain Buffy sites who had sources and script info to get the latest scoop on W/T.

I remember checking spoiler sites every five minutes.

I remember my rage at people who didn't get it, didn't see it, refused to get it, refused to see it, and hid their homophobia in a veil of intellectual bullshit. I have to say that my skin definitely hardened after that and I now feel much more mellow about people who are dumb and clueless. (OK, not entirely mellow but...)

[This message has been edited by judy (edited January 06, 2002).]

judy
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Dazey » Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:32 am

I'm not sure why I'm even reading this thread--other than I've got a massive headache and I can't sleep--cuz it's somewhat depressing...that last paragraph of judy's describes me exactly. But the "tag team" part made me smile, because tyche and I used to do the exact same thing over at the Watcher's Diary at Buffyguide (where I was known as AlyKat and she is still known as morgan). Man, we used to verbally pummel the crap out of anti-W/Ters.

While raging like that was unhealthy and ulcer-inducing, it was also kinda fun. What does that say about me?

Anyway, I'm extremely glad it's over and that I don't go to those bad places anymore.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited January 06, 2002).]

Dazey
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby tyche » Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:22 am

quote:
Originally posted by Dazey:
But the "tag team" part made me smile, because tyche and I used to do the exact same thing over at the Watcher's Diary at Buffyguide (where I was known as AlyKat and she is still known as morgan). Man, we used to verbally pummel the crap out of anti-W/Ters.


*sigh*
Ah, it was kind of fun stomping on trolls. Stressful as well, though. I'm not really nostalgic for the stress, but it was fun being a tag team.


------------------
Good God, that's a lot of shake!
quote:

tyche
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby SJ » Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:03 am

I remembering watching "Hush" and noticing the subtext straight away. I only started posting on BTVS boards after that episode aired. And I also remember all the rumours about Tara hiding the dust cause she was really a demon. Unfortunately there has been a lot of the same kind of hate around on certain sites lately that's why it's nice to have a great site like the kitten board.
SJ
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Superstar » Sun Jan 06, 2002 8:19 am

quote:
Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
No, there was no resentment against Seth Green. Any suggestion that Oz was being written out of the show because Seth Green wanted to leave got you flamed, and flamed royally. There was a pretty huge wall of angry denial around the whole thing -

Wow. Well I guess that answers my question. I'm kinda glad I wasn't around then, sounds pretty ugly.

quote:

Superstar
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby GODisTigger » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:14 am

quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
Basically, he's mocking the folks who said Tara was evil/a demon/a three-headed snot monster

From outer space?

I usually visit the AOL Buffy board and although the personal attacks finally seemed to taper off, there were always a lot of Tara attacks. I think my first post there was in her defense. Now, since the W/T breakup there have suddenly been scores of W/T and Tara fans pouring out of the woodwork. I keep thinking "Where were you when she was getting bashed??"

D

quote:

GODisTigger
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Eyes Without A Face » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:18 am

"No, there was no resentment against Seth Green. Any suggestion that Oz was being written out of the show because Seth Green wanted to leave got you flamed, and flamed royally. There was a pretty huge wall of angry denial around the whole thing."

Well, that would be like stating that Liverpool is better than Manchester United, wouldn't it? Sometimes we are reminded that fan was derived from fanatic, not from a propeller-headed electric implement.

Eyes Without A Face
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby tommo » Sun Jan 06, 2002 11:37 am

quote:
Originally posted by Eyes Without A Face:
Well, that would be like stating that Liverpool is better than Manchester United, wouldn't it?

What, you mean a statement that holds no truth whatsoever?

I'm actually pretty nostalgic for those early days. I don't know, things seemed a lot more innocent then. Yes, I know that we didn't have the plethora of wonderful smoochies that UPN has given us; and we didn't have the sexiness of the musical episode...but sometimes, just sometimes I think back to those days when the Kitten Board was really small and we stood alone in the midst of the Tara bashers.

I suppose that makes me feel a bit proud or something. Although you know, I wouldn't go back to those days when Amber was being attacked for anything. Not anything. That was just horrid.

But hey, sometimes you gotta miss the trolls. Heh.

------------------
"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock
quote:

tommo
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:13 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Superstar:
Wow. Well I guess that answers my question. I'm kinda glad I wasn't around then, sounds pretty ugly.

For a while, the OzMIA list over on eGroups had a spy who lurked on the Kitten, and whenever I said something that spy interpreted as anti-Oz, a couple of them would come over here and start flaming me on this very board. It wasn't pretty.

Fortunately, Xita and Zelda stomped on them and now they're gone. At least... I think they are...

* waves, just in case... *

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
(...and Marti's rather fond of them, too...)
quote:

BBOvenGuy
 


Remembrance of Season 4 Battles Past

Postby Under Her Spell » Sun Jan 06, 2002 3:18 pm

My first experience with postingboards was reading posts by people on the Bronze who were complaining they couldn't watch Buffy now Willow was gay. I don't remember much anti-Tara stuff, but that's probably because I left the Bronze after that and never came back!

The direction Joss has taken Willow and Tara has been deliberately in opposition what some people have said; if some people are thinking their love is a college thing and will never last, he makes it very clear that Willow is gay and in love with Tara.

I think the strength of their love (stronger than Riley and Buffy's or Xander and Anya's) has been a retalitation against all the doubter and hate-spreaders. It's only now that they're well established that they can begin to have any sort of conflict.

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited January 06, 2002).]

Under Her Spell
 


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