The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **Mara** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:01 am

CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR 'STAR TREK: NEW FRONTIER'

I'm a Star Trek: New Frontier fan. For those who don't know it, its a Star Trek 'show' that only exists in books.

Anyway... There's a character named Burgoyne 172 and s/he is a Hermat (a race of hermaphoditical beings). S/he was the Chief Engineer and has recently taken the job of XO of the USS Excalibur.

Well, the point of this post is... Burgy is bissexual, and although the storyline has s/he be bi probably due to hir race, the bottom line is that the USS Excalibur's new XO is. a bissexual.

Just thought it was cool, and that Trek needs more bi and gay characters.

by **Hemiola** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 6:47 am

I'm sure I recall reading somewhere (it might even have been in TV Guide) that there was supposed to be a gay and/or bi character on the new "Enterprise" show, but that "no big deal would be made of it" (i.e. it would simply be treated as factual and normal).

So far such a character has yet to manifest itself.
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"Congratulations. You're pregnant."
Dr. Phlox to Trip in "Enterprise"

by **Dr.G** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 6:57 am

Hemiola, said character probably got sucked into a wormhole. A bisexual character and a hermaphrodite would be very nice sure enough, but it would be even more nice if they were just 'plain' human characters. They do exist, even in our universe/dimension/timeline whatever, and I surely hope they exist our future.

I find Star Trek a wonderful show, well some of the Star Treks anyway, but the lack of gay/bi/trans etc *human* characters is annoying. I get this unhappy feeling that making them (evil*) aliens is a way to somehow 'excuse' it.

I'm not woohooing yet.

*thinking about the intendent Kira

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited November 27, 2001).]

by **Selar** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:30 am

Well, Burgy is a memeber of a race of hemaphrodites, but the way s/he is described in the books is very feminine in my opinion (too much mention of her small breasts for me to imagine hir in any other way). And, s/he is involved with a female Vulcan doctor - Selar. Maybe I have an overactive imagination, but I am totally reading this as a lesbian relationship.

by **CaptMurdock** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:37 am

I dunno, Selar. I tend to react to Burgy as a "male," even given his brief relationship with the helmsman McHenry, which would make that a gay relationship. See? It's all good.

I suppose that's because he fathered a child with Dr. Selar (any relation?) that I tend to think of him as "male." Actually, I often hear him in my head sounding a lot like Neelix! I don't know why.

I love the New Frontiers series! Only Trek books I buy these days.

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"Good God, that's a lot of shake!"

by **xita** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 8:21 am

Garfield I so agree, the implication being that the bisexuality is because he/she is a hermaphrodite.

I too would like a play human bi/gay character on star trek. I say Cop Out... and it's not the tv show anway. Doesn't count! I am still bitterly disappointed that the most hopeful view of a future society doesn't have a gay character. It's actually pretty sickening.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited November 27, 2001).]

by **Mara** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 10:31 am

Although there aren't any gay human characters, there's the mirror universe Ezri, which although not human, doesn't have ani 'racial' reasons to be a lesbian. And then there's the mirror universe Leeta.

I'd also like to see a main character that doesn't have any ofthere 'reasons' to be gay or bi, but so far I've only been able to find those characters in Trek books, namely other Peter David 'New Frontier' Books, in which he has for example put a male Vulcan as being gay and some of Susan Wright's Trek books, such as 'The Best and the Brightest' and 'Dark Passions 1 & 2'.
I've also noticed that both of them write the stories assuming that being gay or bi is a normal thing, which is something I like.

It would be nice if they had a main gay character.... maybe a Captain even?

[This message has been edited by Mara (edited November 27, 2001).]

by **Shaniezak** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:48 pm

In the Star Trek: Voyager book "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor, there's a (human, apparently) gay male couple portrayed among the crew:

quote:
Everyone was willing to accept Chakotay's decision on that matter, although Brad Harrison and his partner, Noah Mannick, asked to stay together, a request Chakotay was happy to accommodate. They had only recently become a couple and were still in the early flush of romantic intensity.

Neither Harrison nor Mannick is a major figure in the book, but they do make a few more brief appearances later on. One of them develops a severe case of nausea and the other starts to do the whole frantic worry thing . . .

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"But if I weren't leaving you, I don't know what I would do. But the more I go, the less I know: will the fire still burn on my return? To keep the path lit on the only road I know, honey, all I know to do is go . . ." -- Indigo Girls

"And if there is a way to find you, I will find you; but will you find me if Neil makes me a tree, an afro, a pharaoh? I can't go, you said so, but threads that are golden don't break easily . . ." -- Tori Amosquote:

by **BBOvenGuy** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:56 pm

There were rumors that the weapons officer on Enterprise would be gay, but as we can all see that's come to nothing.

And as has already been pointed out, yes Selar's brother in the New Frontier books is a gay Vulcan.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"...while i'm here, can I just echo what that other guy said? I think it went something like this: Amber Benson.... Amber Benson..." - Joss Whedon, November 6 2001

"Hannigan..... did you hear that?" - Joss Whedon, November 13 2001

by **Zahir** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:08 pm

Star Trek was initially advertised as "Wagon Train to the Stars" but some essayist (sorry, don't remember who) pointed out it was more often trying to be "Gulliver's Travels in Space." In other words, the aliens were used as a mirror for aspects of the human condition. Given this background, its not too surprising that gay-ness and bisexuality were treated via hermaphrodite species.

But that has frankly become a real weakness in the whole franchise. Whereas Babylon 5 and Farscape (for example) have shown a more mature sensibility with various issues, the various Treks keep seeming distinctly 1960s-ish. Gay issues are a case in point. On B5 Ivanova pretty clearly fell in love with Talia Winters, and a good argument can be made they consumated their feelings for each other. In the same show, two men travelled under false IDs as a couple on their honeymoon. Likewise the character of Zhaan on Farscape clearly had "psychic sex" with a female of her species--and that was never an issue. Interestingly, we did see a hermaphrodite among Chiana's people, and learned they were a persecuted minority. A far more adult treatment of the whole thing, imo. Trek continues to tip-toe around things, while continuing such stereotypes by making the one confirmed bisexual in the Trek Universe (Intendant Kira) a leather-sheathed psychopath.

Not that Alternate-Ezri and Alternte-Leeta didn't make a cute couple (but of course we never saw them again, and neither was human).

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

by **Dr.G** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:15 pm

Hmmph I had typed up this reply and then the Board broke down, so now I am in part repeating what Zahir said, only a little different and seeing as I hate having typed this for naught I am posting it anyway.

I have not read any Star Trek books, what has been described sounds good, but they've had 5 seperate TV series now and the best they could do was an evil bisexual alternate Kira, Jadzia Dax kissing Lenara Kahn, only it was really the symbionts who were still in love because a couple of hosts ago they were husband and wife, one episode mirror Ezri kissing aforementioned evil Kira. All DS9 so far. I have not followed Voyager, so if there was any sign of maintext gay/bi-ness in there I do not know.
The fan-fic and the books just do not quite make up for it, I still like Star Trek, especially DS9, but this bugs me.

Bless Joss.

by **BBOvenGuy** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:35 pm

So far, at least, Enterprise has been a giant step backward in terms of diversity. Three white guys get most of the action. The one human woman is also the only Asian, and she doesn't do much more than open hailing frequencies. How ironic that this latest spinoff of the series that set the early standard for diversity has one of the least diverse casts around.

As for aliens being the only Trek characters allowed to be gay, note that aliens are also the only Trek characters allowed to be religious. Gene Roddenberry was a secular humanist, so I suppose that's not too surprising - except that I don't remember even seeing an ethnically Jewish character in all of Trek, let alone a practicing one. You'd expect there to be at least one Ensign Cohen or Lieutenant Bernstein in the fleet, but there have been none.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"...while i'm here, can I just echo what that other guy said? I think it went something like this: Amber Benson.... Amber Benson..." - Joss Whedon, November 6 2001

"Hannigan..... did you hear that?" - Joss Whedon, November 13 2001

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited November 27, 2001).]

by **Kalita** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:40 pm

I'm with you on the diversity front, Bob... Enterprise hads failed there, again.

But then, Voyager never tried much in that vein either, and my expectations are accordingly low.

At least the story arc is half-decent on Enterprise, and that gains an hour a week of my time. If they start making bad turns like Voyager did, I'm turning it off the same way I did its predecessor.

by **Warduke** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:00 am

I found this at the Canadian TV Guide site...

Stars Miffed Trek Isn't Out

For a show that purports to represent the best of what humanity might be capable of in the future — racial harmony, technology used for the good of all — the five Star Trek series come up short in one major aspect. There has never been a gay character on "Trek." According to the New York Post, MetroSource magazine tackles the issue in its February/March issue with interviews of "Trek" stars past and present. "One would have thought that "Star Trek" would be the ideal environment [for a gay character]," opines Patrick Stewart ("The Next Generation"). Adds Kate Mulgrew ("Voyager"), somewhat more forcefully: "It can be pushed, it should be pushed and it has been pushed by every actor I know of." Unfortunately, though, talk isn't action. "I haven't heard anything coming down the pipeline, Scott Bakula tells the magazine. "But I would be in favor of it. It would be wonderful...if it was not such a huge issue, but was just there."

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited January 19, 2002).]

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