Spoilery Discussion thread for the... well, you know...

[BBOvenGuy]

Okay, just in case you don't know, I'll put in spoiler space...

Danger! Danger, Willow Robinson!

So why did I create this thread? Because I want to discuss what the rumored Willow/Tara breakup might be like, and I don't want to put it on the spoiler-free Dark Willow thread because spoilers are involved in the discussion, and I don't want to mix it in with everything else on the mega-huge spoiler thread. If the mods think the topic should be lumped in somewhere else, that's their prerogative, but for now I'll start this thread here.

After "Flooded" it's pretty darn obvious that Willow is heading down a dark path of her own making. I feel so sorry for her, for reasons I discussed in the episode discussion so I won't repeat them here. And alas, since Willow's problem has to do with magic I think there's going to be a period of estrangement between Willow and Tara coming up.

Note that I say "estrangement," not "breakup." They're different things.

I have problems with the way events are being predicted by Ain't-It-Cool-News. The sequence is goofy - Willow makes Tara forget a fight, then another spell makes Willow reveal the truth, then another spell makes everyone forget, then Tara remembers again! What is this, a TV show or a yo-yo competition? Give me a break.

I also have problems with the idea of Tara just up and leaving because of one spell when she herself has cast a spell on Willow before, and also when she's become such a vital part of life in the Summers household. She's the best mother-figure Dawn has at the moment. Would she give that up so easily? And where would she go? Xander's couch?

Also, with the way Willow's arc is unfolding, I almost feel like the natural progression would be for Willow to be the one to move away. Not just away from Tara, but away from everyone. She's going to hang on for dear life to her belief in her own power as a witch, because that's what makes her feel like she's good and powerful and worthy of all the praise she's spent her life craving. She's going to cling to it against everyone who tries to pull her away from it, even someone like Tara who will do it lovingly.

So, that should be enough thoughts to kick some discussion off. Where do you think Willow and Tara are headed? How big a break is coming? How long will it last? And where will it end?

On that last one, by the way, I'm convinced that it will still end with Willow and Tara back together. Willow's a major star of the show. This arc must eventually end with her rehabilitated and back among the Scoobies, just like Angel eventually had to get back together with his team on Angel last year. Reuniting with Tara will be a part of Willow's restoration. It has to be.

Okay, I'm done now.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

To hope is to risk frustration. Therefore, make up your mind to risk frustration. Do not be one of those who, rather than risk failure, never attempts anything. - Thomas Merton

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited October 17, 2001).]

[SJ]

IMO I see Willow moving out of Buffy's house and maybe asking Xander if she can stay with Anya and him which could well cause friction. And end with Willow falling in with the wrong crowd.
I agree Bob I think it'll be more of an estrangement rather than a breakup.
I think Tara will save Willow from the big bad.
They'll get back together and their relationship will be the stronger for it.

[Dave V]

That Willow and Tara love each other is not at issue. At all. The issue is Willow's use of dark magic cutting herself off from all the Scoobies.

The spells in the Buffyverse seem to be entreaties to higher beings (Aradia, Cadria, etc. etc.). Joss clearly points out the costs of trafficking with such creatures.

Willow may be so blinded that she cannot accept Tara's and the Scoobies's loving concern for what it is, and she will react the way she did with Giles, by striking back - because to do otherwise would be to deny that her powers have value.

At that point, Willow will not be able to live under the same roof as Tara, Buffy and Dawn. I think Willow may try to build a place for herself, directly or indirectly using her powers.

She will have to come to the realization on her OWN that she doesn't NEED her dark powers for her to be valued and loved. Grow up Willow, indeed.

When she finds out about Buffy, this may actually strike a chord - by forcing her to re-examine why she did what she did. Perhaps her journey back will be a result of her trying to atone for the great, great wrong she inflicted on Buffy. I mean, saying "So sorry I ripped you out of Eternal Paradise and thrust you into a Living Hell" just won't cut it.

W/T's love will allow them to try to reconcile, but it will take a lot to rebuild the trust between Willow and Tara. I'm thinking a season-long arc. Joss and company have spent so much time building up to this, I cannot see them wrapping it up very quickly.

A BIG part of W/T's reconciliation must be Willow giving up the use of dark magic. If Willow returns to her hacker roots, the question arises as to what it would take to prevent her from using dark magics in the future. At first, I was thinking of Willow submitting to a binding spell. However, this abrogates her free will. Also, it just isn't cinematic.

The addiction metaphor has been used by others to describe Willow's magic use. In a similar vein, it would add something to Willow's character if, from then on, she would have to fight the urge to use dark magic, just as an addicted person fights to stay clean. Tara herself will then be Willow's strength and be her example to emulate - a discerning user of power.

[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited October 17, 2001).]

[greatluna]

although i very much see Willow being estranged from the rest of the Scoobies, i think it is more likely to see Tara disappearing for a while, since Amber has *officially* signed for 16 episodes only...

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*seeya sometime/yeah right* (ryan adams)

[E-Male]

Ohhhh...I dont like this whole thing at all

..I just have a question, if Willow never uses Dark Magicks again...why cant she use White Magick?...instead of never using magick again?...I mean it was working ok for her up until Tough Love.

Did I mention I hate this whole Will being bad thing!

Dev

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Osiris, Let her cross over! - Willow

No one messes with my girl - Tara

[Dave V]

Sure, I think Willow would still be able to cast "good" magics. However, she has dabbled with the dark stuff before (the aborted spell against Oz/Veruca, the "my will be done" spell...).

Looking at it from the writing point of view, it may make more sense for Willow to turn away from the magical end of things and back to the science/hacker thing. Like an alcoholic, a little taste may be too much. Willow's magic use might be then relegated to "aiding" others (i.e. Tara) with their spell-casting.

[xita]

This has me thinking about things. Amy and Tara both got their magick from their mother. Where does Willow get hers. I think it's something to consider now that she is getting super strong. If it is an outside source it could be that Willow will have to defeat it and then she could be left with just very benign white magick ability. That's pure speculation but it is something that would deal with that. On the other hand, really growing up means using what you have responsibly. Taking away Willow's power through any kind of spell for instance, would not prove that she has grown up and is able to deal with her power.

Yes, like Bob I will begin to call it the estrangement. I have a hard time believing that Tara would just break up with Willow over one spell. Tara messed with Willow's brain in family. The only way I would see things play out that way is if we start seeing Tara complaining of nightmares or something as a fallout of glory messing with her head. Willow's intrusion in her mind might then seem way over the top. This is really the only way I would see this play out that way.

I also see Willow moving out. Tara is clearly the parental figure for Dawn. I can see maybe Tara breaking up with Willow and Willow of course feeling horrible about it. Tara would suggest that she'd pack her bags and leave. Willow not feeling the love at scooby central would suggest that she should be the one to leave. And I do agree that there has to be redemption for Willow and quickly. I predict by ep 16 this will be resolved. Willow has to return to her hacker roots and help fight whatever the big bad is. Or she returns to her hacker roots and becomes the leader of the lame gunmen. I think that she won't, I think a scooby as the big bad has been done and the new enemy will be something new as Marti suggested. So I think that Willow has to return to help with the enemy, something that I believe will be a lame gunmen creation. I suggested in chat that an AI would be the perfect big bad as it hasn't been done before and it would really cause lots of problems and fit with the technology theme this year.

Anyway, Tara will not stop loving Willow and Willow's love for Tara may be the only thing keeping her from total evil. And Tara will be key in not only her redemption but her restoration as a scooby. Tara will be the only one trusting her for a while. And by this time Tara will have built her scooby status and be a crucial part of the group.

But, I won't lie the whole thing is stressing me out!

[This message has been edited by xita (edited October 17, 2001).]

[tommo]

I think what bothers me is the way this is so clear cut in spoilers. One minute it's a love song, the next it's a spell, then the break up. It just doesn't happen like that. Break ups have to come from insidious feelings of hurt and pain and real problems. How many problems have Willow and Tara had lately? None. We've only seen them cuddling, comforting, pledging their love. I'm sorry, but I don't like the idea of Tara saying "You lied to me, I'm off!" That doesn't cut it with me.

Plus, I'm sure that given her family background, Tara can understand perhaps how magick is a release of some kind; some sort of placebo against the lack of real affection. If anything, the problems between Willow and Tara will arise from the fact that Willow has had more than her fair share of support and love, yet still chooses to go down the 'powerful witch' route.

Interesting points made in chat last night; that Xander and Willow, to some extent, seek their own personal justification in other people. If this is so, then perhaps Willow's use to the group, accepting a role as leader with Buffy gone and subsequently performing the resurrection spell went some way to boosting her self esteem. We know that Willow's hardly the most confident person in the world, and whilst that has changed somewhat over the last two or three seasons, I would imagine that the vestiges of her personality retain some of that insecurity somewhere.

I'm not excusing her dabbling with dark forces, just trying to find some justification for it in her own mind.

Whatever happens, I like the word 'estrangement'. I don't want to see them go through troubles, although I know that all relationships have them and nothing is ever easy if it's worth having. But I do have some sense that Tara's newfound confidence will enable her to perhaps take a stronger role in helping Willow see the error of her ways. And yes, they love one another, that's not in dispute. Thinking back to Willow's reaction to their argument in Tough Love, I can only imagine what she would be like if Tara laid down the law and forced her to make a choice of some sort.

Yes, of course I'm worried about an impending thread of angst for our girls. But I also think that their love for one another is a lot more hardy and stronger than perhaps, ahem, other couples on the show.

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"Y-you wanna look at the money? I find it always calms me."

[BBOvenGuy]

Xita, I don't blame you for stressing. I've been doing a bit of that myself.

I was thinking yesterday about what it would take to snap Willow back to her senses. Some sort of incident where the powers she was tapping hurt Tara sprang to mind. Actually, at first I thought Joss might have Willow acidentally kill Tara, but then I realized that wouldn't work. As I said before, eventually Willow has to be rehabilitated so she can rejoin the Scoobies (and stay on the show), and there's no way that can happen if Willow kills one of the good guys, accidentally or not. Not unless Willow develops a British accent and dyes her hair platinum blonde, that is.

[sparrow]

This whole dark clouds looming has got me completly stressed out. Trouble is abrewing, in small ways. Remember we didn't see the fight in "Tough Love" coming either and that was a rough spot.

Willow's addiction is growing, her giddiness at bringing Buffy back, threat to Giles, the flippant use of magic and her overconfidence is all very scary and worry some. Something has to happen to bring Wil back to reality, the controlled use of magic. I just hope the storm that's a coming disapates quickly and many smoochies and bed scene with Wil and Tara ensue.

"Assume crash positions"

[Salix]

I don't think Willow will start doing bad things because she's pissed or whatever. I think it will be a result of calling the Dark Ones and they run amok as Giles warned her.

I keep thinking about the way Tara pulled back when Willow went all dark during the spell at the end of "After Life". Like that dark power shocked her. Willow's overconfidence is based on calling these dark spirits. So Willow has to learn that she's not really the powerful one, and doesn't have all the control she thinks she does. These spirits do what she asks because it suits them and these spirits will eventually bite her.

Where does this leave their relationship? Headed for troubled times of course. I've stayed spoiler-free for this season so I don't have the insight that some of you do. But I'm sure they break up, and I bet Tara does it. Plus kicks her out of Summers-ville. Let Willow see what it's like with just her magic and power. And no Tara. Willow will probably do some very silly and dangerous things that will shock her back to reality and to Tara.

I think Giles will put Willow on the path to using non-dark magic with Tara as her guide.

And they'll all live happily ever after. At least until Season 7 when it all gets stressed out again.

Here endeth the lesson. (I love saying that.)

[Dave V]

Bob, Salix, I think you're right. The entities that Willow invokes are capricious, and may strike back at one or more of the Scoobies. Death, however, is probably not in the cards. I cannot yet conceive of how Willow could reconcile with Buffy et. al. if Willow caused the death of one of them. Yet, in the Buffyverse there is nothing so shocking as death. Would it actually take something so final to shake Willow out of her slide?

Willow is so proud of the powers she wields. They will be cold comfort to her if Tara no longer shares her bed.

With all this angst, we may at the end of it all be witness to a great, romantic, passionate reconciliation. Again, the Kitten Board mantra rolls through my mind.

[This message has been edited by Dave V (edited October 17, 2001).]

[BBOvenGuy]

Oh, the mantra is definitely in play here. Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple the show has had since Angel went into spin-off land, and Joss is milking it for all its worth.

I can see the point of those who may argue that death is the most romantic outcome for such a romatic storyline - I can see it, but I don't agree with it. The only option I think Joss has is to reunite our girls in the end, even if it's after much torment.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

To hope is to risk frustration. Therefore, make up your mind to risk frustration. Do not be one of those who, rather than risk failure, never attempts anything. - Thomas Merton

[Warduke]

First of all, I like your idea Bob, it’s an estrangement, not a breakup

I don’t have anything new to say because I agree with all that has been said here concerning things like Tara breaking up with Willow just like that makes no sense to me, if they do breakup, I agree Willow would be the one to leave the house and not Tara, and of course the fact that whatever happens, there is no doubt they still love each other completely and that Tara, with that love, will bring Willow back in the end.

I know this arc will not be a few eps but I do hope it’s not too long, I would really hate an extended period of Willow and Tara apart

I am stressed about this but I also have NO doubt that all will be ok in the end, but for someone who doesn’t truly believe that Tara won’t die or that they will get back together, then this arc will be a living hell for them, they have my sympathies.

[wiccie]

Let's not forget that lately the "ends" of Willow's magicks have justified the means, to her and the other Scoobs; Glory was weakened, Tara has her brain back, and Buffy is resurrected. She hasn't had a spell go wonky since "Something Blue", hence Willow's memory fades while her pride grows.

So far the only dire consequences (that Willow is aware of) have been the suffering of Willow herself, and I think a certain amount of matyrdom is part of the addictive thrill for her.

Like any addict, she'll have to "hit bottom" (and sadly, I don't mean a spanking for Naughty Tara*G*) and reach her own moment of clarity. No one else, not even Giles or Tara, can convince her that what she's doing is wrong until the cold hard facts smack Willow in the face.

I'm hoping the face-smacking comes in the form of Willow being in the doghouse, or some non-serious injury to one of her friends, and NOT death of loved ones or permanent break-up for W/T.

Wow, that was ripe with incoherence!

On the bright side, just imagine what the make-up sex will be like! Whoo-hoo!

[anon]

Someone mentioned that they could see Tara kicking Willow out of the Summers house. I can not see that unless the whole scooby group does and intervention with Willow... "the magic or us kind of thing". They could call the episode "intervention"... opps, they used that title. They could call it "tough love"... opps, they used that title also.

[This message has been edited by anon (edited October 18, 2001).]

[Scarecrow]

Someone asked if Willow eventually turns good having been dark why she can';t still use White Magik. Well, black and white the world is not.

Magik is magik and if Willow wants to keep away from the dark side she has to keep away from it altogether. Like an alcoholic can't have just 'one drink'. She has always believed her powers are good and if she sinks so far she will have to give them up all together or suffer the consequences.

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"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"She's my everything"
- Willow

"For some people small beautiful events are what life is all about"
- 5th Doctor

"We all have a Universe of our own terrors to face"
- 7th Doctor

[BBOvenGuy]

In light of the latest spoilers, including the news released about the musical and the stuff Len just gave us about Amy, I have some new thoughts on the Willow/Tara estrangement/temporary separation.

I was saying as early as mid-summer that Willow's "dark magic" storyline would be over by mid-season. Re-introducing Amy makes me even more confident of that prediction. We've already seen that Amy has no problem with using magic indiscriminantly and without secrecy. If she's teaming up with Willow, that should move Willow's storyline along at a good clip.

I'm also now thinking that Willow will be the one to move out of the Summers house, because I can't see Buffy condoning that kind of attitude or behavior. Tara may move out as well, but I don't see Buffy letting Willow stay there and act the way she's acting.

Lastly, about Tara's song in the musical episode. The musical is supposed to be the episode where Joss presents all his storylines for the season. What's a love song from Tara to Willow doing there? The W/T relationship isn't a main thread this year, other than as a part of the overall Willow thread. Joss didn't have to put the love song there - he could have had Tara sing about being worried, or have her sing about her mother, or about magic in general. He didn't even have to have Tara sing at all. But he did, and he had her sing about how much Willow means to her. This suggests to me that Tara's love will play a major role in bringing Willow back from dark-magic-land.

Anyway, those are my latest thoughts on the subject...

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

To hope is to risk frustration. Therefore, make up your mind to risk frustration. Do not be one of those who, rather than risk failure, never attempts anything. - Thomas Merton

[delany]

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
But he did, and he had her sing about how much Willow means to her. This suggests to me that Tara's love will play a major role in bringing Willow back from dark-magic-land.

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i think your right about that mr. oven-guy-man-type-person..
i don't think anyone can deny the love that these two have for each other. the sacrifices they have made for each other shows that. and they always profess they're love..okay so not ALWAYS but when it's not verbally expressed, it's visible physically (no not like that either ) from what we've seen in season 5, so far, and in the spoilers, they'll go to hell and back for wach other and they are totally commited.
willow found tara again last season and, this season tara will find willow. they'll seperate, and they'll get back together, and they'll be stronger than ever.
*insert soap opera music*

delquote:

[Warduke]

Bob, your views on this subject always bring a smile to my face

I hope you’re right about this storyline being over by mid-season, I really don’t want it lasting longer than that, I don’t want to see them have any angst at all but we know that’s impossible on Joss’ show

And that’s a great point about Tara’s love song to Willow, she could have sang about her fears about Willow’s magic use but no, she sings about her love for Willow and what she means to her, I agree that this will be Willow’s salvation…Tara’s love for her.

[Scout]

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
He didn't even have to have Tara sing at all.

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Actually, he kind of did because Amber really wanted to sing, but Aly didn't want to sing at all. But I think you make a good point about the focus of the song. All season we've been shown how dedicated Tara is to Willow, and when it comes time to choose a song for Tara, Joss creates one that not only addresses some of the gay issues that have been circulating concerning W/T, but also addresses the importance of Willow in Tara's life. I think the song will make a wonderful impression about the strong bond between the two of them and that will be important since the split follows that episode.

quote:

[Dave V]

I like the direction of your thought, Bob.

Joss Whedon writes like Chekov. Chekov would never have something appear near the beginning of a play that would not be utilized or mentioned later. If Joss makes a point of Tara expressing her love for Willow, I think that this has to cash out as the season unfolds - with Tara's love leading Willow back to her and the Scoobies.

[discostar]

::ulls hair out::: this is too much hehe

quote:

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Dev Said
Ohhhh...I dont like this whole thing at all
..I just have a question, if Willow never uses Dark Magicks again...why cant she use White Magick?...instead of never using magick again?...I mean it was working ok for her up until Tough Love.

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The thing is, ressurecting the dead and shooting high voltage energy beams isnt "white magic". It's like the "good" stuff follows the rules and the "bad" stuff breaks it. If you break the rules you can do what you want, but then choas insues. I think that is what Giles ment, and that could be the theme of this season if you think about it.

I really hope W/T dont break up, but i think There will be a misunderstanding like in [forgets epside title where Tara got brain-drained *^_^*]. Tara will probably say the wrong thing and willow will be hurt or take it the wrong way.

but lets face it, relationships in sunnydale are DOOMED from the get-go.

[small]please dont break up please dont break up[/small]

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You smell like her. She's all
over you, you know that?

I can't. I can't talk about th- th..

But there's something to talk about

My LiveJournalquote:

[Puff]

I think of the break up that has been rumoured and then I think back to what Joss said before the season about Willow and Tara and I just can't see that they would stay broken up.

He said the season is all about growing up and in Willows case learning to use her magic responsibly...this doesn't fill me with doom. Yes she is going down a dark path but Tara has always been there for her and I'm sure she will be in the future as well.

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Bite me

[Willowlicious]

This is my first post ever, so...um, hi! I think that Willow will be saved from her destructive path around the 2/3 mark of the season, setting up her dramatic return to the Scoobies to fight the Big Bad, whoever, whatever it is in the last part of the season. All signs point to Tara being her beacon back to safety, and I hope that is true.

Given all the spoilers and the comments of Joss Whedon this seems to be the direction it's all going. The only thing that concerns me is a comment from Alyson Hannigan about Willow's arc this season. She confirmed that Willow is going down a dark path, indicated she was squeamish about it and hoped that "everyone doesn't hate me (Willow)." Ummm, I hope that doen't mean that Willow does something REALLY horrible. I have developed quite a crush on Will and don't want there to be too much suffering. Although, Alyson Hannigan is scarily talented and will no doubt leave us in awe when it is all is said and done.

Okay, now for my big admission. I had never seen an entire episode of BTVS until FX started running the reruns last month! Please don't throw things at me! I had heard how wonderful it was and made a point of TiVo-ing it each night. Soon I wasn't content with one episode a night. I knew I had to catch up on Season 5 (I did know that Buffy died and was coming back) so I could enjoy Season 6. I found a few episodes online that got me up to speed. Now I'm hopelessly addicted! I've read a couple of episode guides to fill me in on what I need to know, but as it is, I've only seen about 25% of the series. Sigh! I desperately want to see the Season 4 stuff with Willow, Oz and Tara, but I guess I'll have to wait for FX as I'm hopeless with file-sharing and the like.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. This is a wonderful board!

[Ed Wood]

Welcome Willowlicius! You've made a fantastic first post!

You could try downloading some older episodes here or here

[This message has been edited by Ed Wood (edited October 25, 2001).]

[BBOvenGuy]

Some new thoughts I had this morning while getting my car smog-checked.

I've been wondering what it was going to take to bring Willow out of her magic addiction, and I realized that a couple of theories we've been tossing around won't work.

Having Willow be saved by stronger magic from Tara won't work. It'll just make Willow think that she needs to learn more magic, since magic is what saved her.

Injuring or killing someone close to Willow won't work. She's already brought Buffy back from the dead. If Tara were to get killed, for example, Willow would think she could fix it with a spell to reverse time or something like that.

What it's going to take is a tragedy that affects Willow herself. The road she's on can only end one way, and that's in her own destruction. Not literally, of course, because we all know Alyson Hannigan isn't leaving the show. But what if something leads to Willow's magical destruction?

This isn't speculation as much as it is "how I'd write the story if I was the one writing it." I've said this before, but now I'll elaborate. I think Willow is heading for something that will "burn out" her magical abilities. She's clinging to magic as the one thing she trusts - what if that leads her to a point where that magic is suddenly taken away? What does she have then? What kind of Willow is left?

There's plenty of Willow left, of course, but since Willow sees magic as the thing that brought her out of geekdom, she may not see it that way. It's going to take more than magic to bring Willow back after such a fall. It's going to take love. That's where Tara comes in - not by casting bigger and more powerful spells, but by doing the one thing no one else could do. Tara would be the one to show Willow that she's still valuable and still worthy of love.

I can almost picture it now - Willow sitting in a dark room, staring at a pencil that refuses to move for her. Tara comes in and Willow breaks down, thinking that her life is over because her magic is gone, and Tara comforting her and reassuring her that her life is really just beginning...

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other." - Tara to Anya, Bargaining, Part 2

[SciFiAcid]

hmmmm, nice Bob. I like that scenario. But I also would like them to show that Tara does have power equal to Willow's. I don't know why it's nagging at me... but there ya go. And I think you're right. If Tara confronts her via magicks, I can see it not really 'helping' Willow. She wouldn't learn anything from that mez thinks. Plus, Willow can go back to being the geek-hacker-girl we all adore!!

[Dr.G]

Hmm, I really hope Willow will not lose her magical abilities. I hope and trust Willow learns to use her powers wisely, to me that seems more in tune with the growing up theme, if she simply burns out that seems more like punishment than learning. Not sure I am expressing myself correctly here. *sigh* I just hope she will keep her powers. I love witchy Willow, and darn it, I want to see her do spells with Tara.

[sparrow]

Very nice Bob. I can also see Wil staring at the penicil, which would bring her full circle to the old eps and to when she first met Tara.
Tara completes Willow in ways no one can understand or match and it will be Tara who is there when all seems lost but is truly only the beginning.

Again, great thoughts. I just love how you take a part what is going on.

"Am I under you spell? Nothing I can do..."

"I'm a breast gal myself..."