The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **BBOvenGuy** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 8:48 pm

Since the WB is spending the summer trying to run Buffy into the ground before UPN gets it, let's make the most of their dirty trickery and discuss the episodes we've haven't seen for a while.

Tonight was "Buffy vs. Dracula," and I must say I was surprised at how much I found myself missing the old days. It was kind of nice to harken back to the good old days of yesteryear, when The Initiative was still a recent memory, when Joyce was still alive, before there was a Dawn or a Glory or a Ben or Spike's crush.

Don't get me wrong - Season 5 has been a whale of a good ride, but I had fun watching tonight. More fun than I had the first time, actually.

I couldn't help noticing how much more robust and happy and healthy Buffy looked. I mean, she's never looked as happy and healthy as she did in Season 1, but "Buffy vs. Dracula" shows us just how worn and weary Buffy had become by "The Gift." This year really does strip everything away from her, and they reflected that in the way they dressed and made up SMG.

There's not much W/T goodness here, although they're awfully cute in the beach scene. Remember the first time we saw this episode, when we were all so worried about Tara's secret and trying to figure out when the Tara-less episodes were going to run?

Was anyone else watching tonight? What did you see that maybe you didn't see before? What looks different now that we're 21 episodes later?

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon

by **kpmuse** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:11 pm

Good episode. It was a simpler time back then in Sunnydale.

It looks like the writers were forewarning us of ASH's real return to England in this show. He tells Willow that he is leaving. At the time, I thought it was a minor part of the storyline that would be resolved quickly, but now it seems that maybe they were preparing us even back then for ASH's changed role on the show next season.

I loved the way they brought Dawn on the show! She is just standing there all of a sudden in that last scene. What a perfect intro!

Cute the way Xander tries to get details from Will about her & Tara -- any secrets, even naughty ones, and Willow says not going to happen!
And of course, I loved the knowing look W&T gave each other when Joyce is telling them that it's hard to date and sometimes you just feel like giving up on men altogether!

All the women of Buffy looked fabulous tonight in their summery outfits with arms a showing! Wow!

by **Zahir** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:38 pm

Gotta say my favorite W/T moment in this episode was when Tara said "You found Dracula sexy?" and Willow backpedalled at warp speed.

Oh and I loved "I'm right here!"

Plus of course that wonderful scene at the very, very end between Buffy and Giles.

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

by **tommo** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 4:20 am

The beach scene was cute, with Willow making the point about being the sidekick, which as we all know, she turns out to definitely NOT be later in the season.

And it was so nice to see the Scoobies with their SO's as well, including Tara.

Sigh. I love seeing them together without angst or trouble or pain.

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"Tara had never felt as good about herself in her life. Willow gave her that gift. And another gift. Tara couldn't quite bring herself to call it love. Not yet. But there was time." ~ Unseen: The Burning

by **Naturegal** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 4:23 am

This made me go back and read the beach dialogue that was cut from the show (the piece about Willow's major). It would have been cute to see it in the show.

I agree, though, that it was nice seeing everyone relaxed and happy. Little did we know!

by **Hemiola** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 6:20 am

OK, as long as we're bringing this up again, I hope we'll get some answers to the questions this episode brought up but which were never resolved:

1. This will sound strange, but it was never determined if it was REALLY Dracula who was visiting Sunnydale. Many fans remarked at the time of the first showing that the two characters who claimed to have actually known him (Anya and Spike) NEVER ACTUALLY GOT A LOOK AT HIM!!!!! Thus, we really have no way of knowing if the individual was, in fact, Dracula or just someone, as Xander put it, with a case of "Dark Prince Envy" .

2. If it WAS Dracula, they never really explained where those "special" powers came from (except Spike's remark about "Gypsy tricks", which implies that the "powers" weren't real at all).

3. I still wanna know, along with Riley, where the "big honkin' castle" came from.

4. Finally, we see Dracula "dust" when Buffy stakes him, but he seems to be able to "reconstruct" himself. So, is he "Eurotrashed" or not??

I have always been intrigued by one of the possible explanations for this episode. Since we have Dawn introduced at the very end, which of course involved the use of some immensely powerful "magicks" to distort the BTVS reality, could it be that it was the monks' disruptions of "reality" that caused the appearance of a "fictional" (i.e. "not real", just as Dawn is "not real") character?

[This message has been edited by Hemiola (edited June 25, 2001).]

by **tommo** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 6:45 am

Ooooh that's such a great theory, Hermiola. Maybe I should watch the ep again now.

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"Tara had never felt as good about herself in her life. Willow gave her that gift. And another gift. Tara couldn't quite bring herself to call it love. Not yet. But there was time." ~ Unseen: The Burning

by **Zahir** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:51 am

Actually, I thought Spike and Anya didn't see Drac because that heightens his mystery.

And methinks Dracula is a very strange vampire, when all is said and done. When you think about it, BtVS certainly portrays a fair amount of variety when it comes to vampires. Look at the Master, Spike, Kiskatos and Drusilla to just name a few!

Here's another theory--different vampiric bloodlines have somewhat different natures and powers. Hence most vampires we see are from the same line as The Master, but Dracula was from a different strain?

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

by **Kalita** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 8:16 am

Not so sure on that monk theory. Right in the middle of the ep, we've got Buffy and Joyce having dinner together and it's all about how Joyce is usually by herself for that, and how they should do it together more often.

Then suddenly at the end, there's little sis and Joyce is asking Buffy to get her out of her hair for an evening. Total quantum shift to the Revello Drive situation.

I maintain that the little cap-scene with Dawn was a day or two after the Dracula debacle, and represented the moment that the monks implemented everything.

Just my 2 cents (3.4 CDN).

by **Warduke** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 8:16 am

I don't think I ever read the shooting script for BvsD, so Willow had mentioned her major and there was this cute W/T scene...

WILLOW
(offers/ to Riley)
I do. Really. I was gonna structure my major around computer science - but now I don't know…what if drama class is awesome?
Do I cast off the safe and dependable for the exhilarating unknown?

TARA
Maybe you should take the class before you re-think your life plan.
I mean, it's not like the Goddess Thespia rules your seventh house.

Tara and Willow bust up at this apparently funny thought. Everybody else just looks at them.
Willow tries to explain chuckling all the while-

WILLOW
Ohhh, God… See that's…The Goddess Thespia -
she was a total drama queen and…(running out of steam)
The seventh house, that's like
when… Ahhhh… Whooo…

TARA
(embarrassed)
It's okay. I keep forgetting - jokes should have funny parts.

WILLOW
It was funny.
Super funny and clever and…
(giving up)
Fire ready yet?

So tell me again why there are so many W/T scenes on the cutting room floor?

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited June 25, 2001).]

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BBOvenGuy
Gay Now!

Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 25, 2001 11:32

quote:
Originally posted by Warduke:
So tell me again why there are so many W/T scenes on the cutting room floor?

My theory is that Willow and Tara are too inspirational for their own good.

What I mean is - when you're writing, stuff comes to you. If too much stuff comes to you, it's not until later when you've got the whole script on paper and film in the can that you realize it. At that point, you've got to make the hard decisions and cut the stuff that's least relevant to the overall plot. (There's a saying - "In writing you must kill all your darlings." In other words, no matter how good a scene is, if it doesn't fit into the story you've got to leave it out.)

It certainly looks like the entire writing staff is very taken with Willow and Tara, and the characters are always suggesting cute bits in everyone's heads. Unfortunately, there isn't always time for those bits and so a lot of them get cut.

I'm making a purely seat-of-the-pants gut-feel guess here, but I'd say over the course of Season 5, it looked like Willow and Tara got roughly the same number of onscreen cute bits as Xander and Anya - and yet there were many W/T bits cut and no X/A bits cut (that I can recall). So I ask - which couple was really more inspirational overall this past year? Willow and Tara by far.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon

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fell
Cool Monster Fighter

Posts: 281
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 25, 2001 12:00

most religions, to varying degrees, view existence as supernatural. of course, they all insist that their "reality" is the only "reality," but in the end they are all positing the same thing: a consensus reality.

science and history do this, too, though in a different manner.

a lot of speculative fiction is based on the idea that fantasy worlds are a manifestation of collective imagination, ie, a consensus reality. i think that's part of its appeal, since our view of the universe works that way anyway. the current consensus is that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old, 100 years ago most people would have said 4 thousand. we mostly believe what everyone else believes.

what does all this have to do with dracula?
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

remember buffy saying she's seen his movies? this argues for a sort of meta-reality for monsters and myths that have their own existence beyond the buffyverse.

my point about religion is this: there is no traditional religion, as a belief system, at work in the buffyverse. there is a belief system, however, in which popular and folk superstitions, magic, movie and literary monsters are real and everyone takes their reality for granted.

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Jamraza
Floating Rose

Posts: 38
Registered: May 2001 posted June 25, 2001 12:36

My whole theory on the tricks...
Drac was some kinda warlocky guy when he got vamped.. And that characteristic carried over into his vamp self

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Scarecrow
Doll's eye crystal

Posts: 59
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 13:49

I love this ep! Whgen i first got my Buffy Box Set I watched it over about five times staright! So cool.
I always thought Dracula was avamp who simply used a lot of warlocky tricks and spells. I mean Ethan turned Giles into a demon so why couldn't Dracula have acess to similar powers?
Are we sure we know how old he is, he could well have lived a lot longer before the book wasa written...

------------------
"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"

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geekgod
Cool Monster Fighter

Posts: 133
Registered: Jan 2001 posted June 25, 2001 15:23

I'm not a Riley fan but he had a couple very funny lines in this episode that I had forgot about:

"no sir, no more chick pit for you"

"at least you weren't making time with the Dracubabes..... were you going to nuzzle them to death"

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"

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gypsyfoot
Floating Rose

Posts: 48
Registered: May 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:27

Warduke, that scene that was cut does it remind you of another one that was not cut in a diffeerent eps?
Where Tara says something to the scoobies and they say "Huh?". But later when Tara talks to Willow, Willow totally gets the joke.
No doubt about the writers have those two in total mental sync.

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I'll have the less confusing waffles right now. Willow (4-19)

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BBOvenGuy
Gay Now!

Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 25, 2001 16:41

Yes, it was brought back in "Family" with the "insect reflection" line that became a running gag through the entire episode. (If you'll recall, Tara and Anya are still talking about it at the birthday party.)

My guess is that (a) two writers were in synch about the girls, (b) Joss was trying to establish a pattern by showing the same thing twice, or (c) Joss liked the idea so much that he put it into "Family" after they discovered there wasn't room for it in "Buffy vs. Dracula." Personally, I think (c) is the most likely scenario.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited June 25, 2001).]

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Kabuki
Doll's eye crystal

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:52

I have to admit *prepares to duck* watching this episode made me kinda miss Riley (DON'T HURT ME!!)

I liked all his lines mentioned above, plus the line: "I've been living in Sunnydale for awhile now, and you know what I've never noticed? .. Big honkin castle."

And of course, Willow and Tara's little scene with Joyce and the "giving up men altogether" line- still very funny.

It was interesting to listen to Buffy and Dracula's dialogue in light of what happened this season.. all that stuff he kept saying about what a Slayer can really do.. "what your body is capable of".. I was trying for some clues as to how they're bringing Buffy back. Drac liked to imply that Buffy is related to vampires, and we've seen a couple vamps brought back by the PTB (Angel, Darla), could they go that route? When they get Buffy back, will she be all Meta-Slayer and possibly really different from the Buffy we know? *sigh* I'll never make it to October.

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Scarecrow
Doll's eye crystal

Posts: 59
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:57

Hmmm...

I have to say thats an intresting point, who knows? maybe we get semi-demon Buffy?

Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!

*hides*

------------------
"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"

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minion
Doll's eye crystal

Posts: 53
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 17:25

quote:
Originally posted by Scarecrow:
Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!
*hides*

Wow, you're brave aren't ya?

As for Buffy v Drac I liked it, it was kinda fun and had Willow and Tara on the beach which is always a pleasant image (okay, well it is for me anyway!)

Shame they cut out W+T's little joke fest, I always liked the one in family, how they used it to beautifully illustrate how perfect they are for each other, you know that Willow completely understands Tara's sense of humour, however off the wall it is, she finds her funny and understands why Tara finds things funny, see, perfect!

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I am in thunderous agreement, oh glittering, glistening Glorificus! : Jinx in Tough Love

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Dazey
Willowhand

Posts: 499
Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 26, 2001 00:48

I'd always figured that the "Goddess Thespia" bit in BvD was written specifically to set up "Family," where we get the insect reflection joke and then Buffy and Xander talking about not understanding half of what Tara says. The Buffy/Xander bit would actually make more sense had the Thespia bit not been cut...other than those two instances, when has Tara made esoteric comments around them? I don't know why they cut that and left in the (pretty lame) line about the pain and heartbreak of stinkiness, which honestly to me didn't seem like something Tara would say.

quote:
Originally posted by fell:
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

I would disagree on Angel being older than Drac. Although Bram Stoker did not explicitly connect his vampire creation to the historical figure whose sobriquet he borrowed, popular conception and the media have--including BtVS. Giles says to Willow and Tara, "find out everything you can about the actual legend of Vlad the Impaler"...I don't think he'd do this if, in the Buffyverse, Vlad and Dracula weren't one and the same.

So...Angel has been a vampire for 248 years. Vlad was born in 1431...judging from his appearance he must've gotten vamped in his mid-20s...any way you slice it he's got close to 300 years on Angel.

And then there's Riley...okay, while I never disliked him the way that so many others did, he was never going to be my favorite character...but based on this ep I thought Season 5 was going to be his breakout season. He was really funny. I was all, Yeah, Riley's gonna be a real Scooby now! Alas, 'twas not to be. And ultimately of course, the show and Buffy are better off without him. I still think this was his best ep, though.

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Anyalvr
Willowhand

Posts: 393
Registered: Dec 2000 posted June 26, 2001 02:06

Actually, Dracula WAS a real person.

Thee was a Romanina prince in the 1400s who as called Prince Vlad The Impaler (Dracula).
The legends concerning him make him out to be so sadistic he makes Hitler look like a pussycat. He impaled (stabbed) anyone who gave him trouble and posted their bodies around his village so people would know not to mess with him. He presided over Transylvania, which is, yes, a real area in Romania.

Bram Stoker based Dracula onquite a bit of the real history of this guy, as well as Romanian folklore that has existed for eons before he wrote his book. Obviously he set a precedence, but Dracula is more of a mytholgoical character than a pure fictional one. The vampirelegends started because for various political reasons his grave was moved around and there is nobody where he was *suppossed* to be buried.

I got all this infromation from In Search of Dracula by Raymond T. macnally and Radu Flrescu, a dry is fascintating books that details the real history of Vlad as well as the history of vampires/Dracula through literature and movies. Unfortunately, the book came out in the '70sand was recently revamped shortly before BTVS came on the air. if they have waited a little longer, I'm sure they would have had very interesting things to say about our little show.

They do mention the movie in the filmography and there's a lot of talk about the movie of Dracula with Winona Ryder in it.

Anyway, the point - there is a factual basis for Dracula as a real, historical figure.

As for Riley - I didn't mind him until ITW when he seeme to convince Buffy that everything *he* did was all her fault and that he was doing somethignw rong by focusing on her dying mother instead of him.
Definitely not a keeper, but more interesting than Ben.

As for the episode - I liked it. I really liked SMG's hair in this episode but enough with the girly stuff. Plenty of GREAT lines, esp. from Xander, and I love the scene with
Willow and Tara with Joyce. Willow trying to subtly praise Giles was quite amusing.

I also saw "Reprise" tonight, one of my favorite episodes of ngel, probably second after "Reunion". Very interesting. Holland so cracks me up.

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"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

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morgan1707
Doll's eye crystal

Posts: 83
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 26, 2001 14:16

Buffy vs Dracula was the first Buffy episode where I realised that it was actually Sunny in Sunnydale! Just thought I'd share that thought with you all...

[This message has been edited by morgan1707 (edited June 26, 2001).]

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drlloyd11
Willowhand

Posts: 374
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 26, 2001 19:24

I watched the begining of this ep on Sunday, and found my self loving it.
Its strange, but a lot of the least liked eps if season 2 (Bad Eggs, etc) I loved at the time. It seems like I am so much more critical the first time I see a Buffy in the last few years, now I thought Dracula was a blast (I liked the first time, but not like this)
This makes me look forward to the reruns on FX alot more.
One side note, I remember vicuous argument with people who read the live feed and felt it was a dream sequence , starting when Buffy lays back down after the first hunt.
There clue, was the appearence of the Castle.

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Zahir
Tara Ass

Posts: 682
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 26, 2001 21:39

Hmmmmm...

History junkie here. Bram Stoker did not "base" his character on the historical Vlad Tepes (pronounced "tseh-pesh") but rather took the rather cool-sounding name and a couple of details to flesh out his story.

Voivode ("Prince" is an okay translation) Vlad ruled Wallachia, not Transylvania. And exactly the extent of his crimes is hard to judge. Nearly all the folks writing stories about him were biased to say the least. By our standards he seems a monster, but in Romania he occupies much the same role mythologically that King Arthur does in Britain. Interestingly, several folktales about him were integrated into the Francis Ford Coppola film (especially the bit about his unnamed lover throwing herself into a river named "Arges" in her honor--the river goes through an iron deposit which turns the waters reddish).

Certainly Draculea did defeat an army many times the size of his own. Think about a nation the size of Rhode Island being invaded by an empire comprised of Texas and California and you begin to get the idea. He won through the calculated use of terror as a weapon. In doing so he became an important piece in the political chess game between the Turks and Hungarians in the 15th century.

Details of his death and burial remain a mystery. However, Whitby in England does a thriving tourist trade because of the novel's events there (the BBC's Count Dracula with Louis Jourdain was filmed there), as does Transylvania these days (which, btw, truly is one of the most beautiful places on this planet if you're into forests and mountains).

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

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[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited June 25, 2001).]IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyGay Now!

Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 25, 2001 11:32

quote:
Originally posted by Warduke:
So tell me again why there are so many W/T scenes on the cutting room floor?

My theory is that Willow and Tara are too inspirational for their own good.

What I mean is - when you're writing, stuff comes to you. If too much stuff comes to you, it's not until later when you've got the whole script on paper and film in the can that you realize it. At that point, you've got to make the hard decisions and cut the stuff that's least relevant to the overall plot. (There's a saying - "In writing you must kill all your darlings." In other words, no matter how good a scene is, if it doesn't fit into the story you've got to leave it out.)

It certainly looks like the entire writing staff is very taken with Willow and Tara, and the characters are always suggesting cute bits in everyone's heads. Unfortunately, there isn't always time for those bits and so a lot of them get cut.

I'm making a purely seat-of-the-pants gut-feel guess here, but I'd say over the course of Season 5, it looked like Willow and Tara got roughly the same number of onscreen cute bits as Xander and Anya - and yet there were many W/T bits cut and no X/A bits cut (that I can recall). So I ask - which couple was really more inspirational overall this past year? Willow and Tara by far.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon

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posted June 25, 2001 11:32

quote:
Originally posted by Warduke:
So tell me again why there are so many W/T scenes on the cutting room floor?

My theory is that Willow and Tara are too inspirational for their own good.

What I mean is - when you're writing, stuff comes to you. If too much stuff comes to you, it's not until later when you've got the whole script on paper and film in the can that you realize it. At that point, you've got to make the hard decisions and cut the stuff that's least relevant to the overall plot. (There's a saying - "In writing you must kill all your darlings." In other words, no matter how good a scene is, if it doesn't fit into the story you've got to leave it out.)

It certainly looks like the entire writing staff is very taken with Willow and Tara, and the characters are always suggesting cute bits in everyone's heads. Unfortunately, there isn't always time for those bits and so a lot of them get cut.

I'm making a purely seat-of-the-pants gut-feel guess here, but I'd say over the course of Season 5, it looked like Willow and Tara got roughly the same number of onscreen cute bits as Xander and Anya - and yet there were many W/T bits cut and no X/A bits cut (that I can recall). So I ask - which couple was really more inspirational overall this past year? Willow and Tara by far.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedonquote:IP: LoggedfellCool Monster Fighter

Posts: 281
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 25, 2001 12:00

most religions, to varying degrees, view existence as supernatural. of course, they all insist that their "reality" is the only "reality," but in the end they are all positing the same thing: a consensus reality.

science and history do this, too, though in a different manner.

a lot of speculative fiction is based on the idea that fantasy worlds are a manifestation of collective imagination, ie, a consensus reality. i think that's part of its appeal, since our view of the universe works that way anyway. the current consensus is that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old, 100 years ago most people would have said 4 thousand. we mostly believe what everyone else believes.

what does all this have to do with dracula?
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

remember buffy saying she's seen his movies? this argues for a sort of meta-reality for monsters and myths that have their own existence beyond the buffyverse.

my point about religion is this: there is no traditional religion, as a belief system, at work in the buffyverse. there is a belief system, however, in which popular and folk superstitions, magic, movie and literary monsters are real and everyone takes their reality for granted.

IP: Logged

posted June 25, 2001 12:00 most religions, to varying degrees, view existence as supernatural. of course, they all insist that their "reality" is the only "reality," but in the end they are all positing the same thing: a consensus reality.

science and history do this, too, though in a different manner.

a lot of speculative fiction is based on the idea that fantasy worlds are a manifestation of collective imagination, ie, a consensus reality. i think that's part of its appeal, since our view of the universe works that way anyway. the current consensus is that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old, 100 years ago most people would have said 4 thousand. we mostly believe what everyone else believes.

what does all this have to do with dracula?
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

remember buffy saying she's seen his movies? this argues for a sort of meta-reality for monsters and myths that have their own existence beyond the buffyverse.

my point about religion is this: there is no traditional religion, as a belief system, at work in the buffyverse. there is a belief system, however, in which popular and folk superstitions, magic, movie and literary monsters are real and everyone takes their reality for granted. IP: LoggedJamrazaFloating Rose

Posts: 38
Registered: May 2001 posted June 25, 2001 12:36

My whole theory on the tricks...
Drac was some kinda warlocky guy when he got vamped.. And that characteristic carried over into his vamp self

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posted June 25, 2001 12:36 My whole theory on the tricks...
Drac was some kinda warlocky guy when he got vamped.. And that characteristic carried over into his vamp selfIP: LoggedScarecrowDoll's eye crystal

Posts: 59
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 13:49

I love this ep! Whgen i first got my Buffy Box Set I watched it over about five times staright! So cool.
I always thought Dracula was avamp who simply used a lot of warlocky tricks and spells. I mean Ethan turned Giles into a demon so why couldn't Dracula have acess to similar powers?
Are we sure we know how old he is, he could well have lived a lot longer before the book wasa written...

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"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"

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posted June 25, 2001 13:49 I love this ep! Whgen i first got my Buffy Box Set I watched it over about five times staright! So cool.
I always thought Dracula was avamp who simply used a lot of warlocky tricks and spells. I mean Ethan turned Giles into a demon so why couldn't Dracula have acess to similar powers?
Are we sure we know how old he is, he could well have lived a lot longer before the book wasa written...

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"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"IP: LoggedgeekgodCool Monster Fighter

Posts: 133
Registered: Jan 2001 posted June 25, 2001 15:23

I'm not a Riley fan but he had a couple very funny lines in this episode that I had forgot about:

"no sir, no more chick pit for you"

"at least you weren't making time with the Dracubabes..... were you going to nuzzle them to death"

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"

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posted June 25, 2001 15:23 I'm not a Riley fan but he had a couple very funny lines in this episode that I had forgot about:

"no sir, no more chick pit for you"

"at least you weren't making time with the Dracubabes..... were you going to nuzzle them to death"

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"IP: LoggedgypsyfootFloating Rose

Posts: 48
Registered: May 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:27

Warduke, that scene that was cut does it remind you of another one that was not cut in a diffeerent eps?
Where Tara says something to the scoobies and they say "Huh?". But later when Tara talks to Willow, Willow totally gets the joke.
No doubt about the writers have those two in total mental sync.

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I'll have the less confusing waffles right now. Willow (4-19)

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posted June 25, 2001 16:27 Warduke, that scene that was cut does it remind you of another one that was not cut in a diffeerent eps?
Where Tara says something to the scoobies and they say "Huh?". But later when Tara talks to Willow, Willow totally gets the joke.
No doubt about the writers have those two in total mental sync.

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I'll have the less confusing waffles right now. Willow (4-19)IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyGay Now!

Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 25, 2001 16:41

Yes, it was brought back in "Family" with the "insect reflection" line that became a running gag through the entire episode. (If you'll recall, Tara and Anya are still talking about it at the birthday party.)

My guess is that (a) two writers were in synch about the girls, (b) Joss was trying to establish a pattern by showing the same thing twice, or (c) Joss liked the idea so much that he put it into "Family" after they discovered there wasn't room for it in "Buffy vs. Dracula." Personally, I think (c) is the most likely scenario.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited June 25, 2001).]

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posted June 25, 2001 16:41 Yes, it was brought back in "Family" with the "insect reflection" line that became a running gag through the entire episode. (If you'll recall, Tara and Anya are still talking about it at the birthday party.)

My guess is that (a) two writers were in synch about the girls, (b) Joss was trying to establish a pattern by showing the same thing twice, or (c) Joss liked the idea so much that he put it into "Family" after they discovered there wasn't room for it in "Buffy vs. Dracula." Personally, I think (c) is the most likely scenario.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited June 25, 2001).]IP: LoggedKabukiDoll's eye crystal

Posts: 69
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:52

I have to admit *prepares to duck* watching this episode made me kinda miss Riley (DON'T HURT ME!!)

I liked all his lines mentioned above, plus the line: "I've been living in Sunnydale for awhile now, and you know what I've never noticed? .. Big honkin castle."

And of course, Willow and Tara's little scene with Joyce and the "giving up men altogether" line- still very funny.

It was interesting to listen to Buffy and Dracula's dialogue in light of what happened this season.. all that stuff he kept saying about what a Slayer can really do.. "what your body is capable of".. I was trying for some clues as to how they're bringing Buffy back. Drac liked to imply that Buffy is related to vampires, and we've seen a couple vamps brought back by the PTB (Angel, Darla), could they go that route? When they get Buffy back, will she be all Meta-Slayer and possibly really different from the Buffy we know? *sigh* I'll never make it to October.

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posted June 25, 2001 16:52 I have to admit *prepares to duck* watching this episode made me kinda miss Riley (DON'T HURT ME!!)

I liked all his lines mentioned above, plus the line: "I've been living in Sunnydale for awhile now, and you know what I've never noticed? .. Big honkin castle."

And of course, Willow and Tara's little scene with Joyce and the "giving up men altogether" line- still very funny.

It was interesting to listen to Buffy and Dracula's dialogue in light of what happened this season.. all that stuff he kept saying about what a Slayer can really do.. "what your body is capable of".. I was trying for some clues as to how they're bringing Buffy back. Drac liked to imply that Buffy is related to vampires, and we've seen a couple vamps brought back by the PTB (Angel, Darla), could they go that route? When they get Buffy back, will she be all Meta-Slayer and possibly really different from the Buffy we know? *sigh* I'll never make it to October. IP: LoggedScarecrowDoll's eye crystal

Posts: 59
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 16:57

Hmmm...

I have to say thats an intresting point, who knows? maybe we get semi-demon Buffy?

Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!

*hides*

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"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"

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posted June 25, 2001 16:57 Hmmm...

I have to say thats an intresting point, who knows? maybe we get semi-demon Buffy?

Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!

*hides*

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"Liberate tutemet ex inferis"

"I am you know... yours"

"I think i'm kinda gay"

"In all my travels throughout the universe I have battled against evil; against power mad conspirators. Ha, I should have stayed here;the oldest civilisation, decadent, degenerate and rotten to the core! Hah! Power mad conspirators, daleks, sontarans, Cybermen... They're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power; that's what it takes to be really corrupt!"IP: LoggedminionDoll's eye crystal

Posts: 53
Registered: Jun 2001 posted June 25, 2001 17:25

quote:
Originally posted by Scarecrow:
Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!
*hides*

Wow, you're brave aren't ya?

As for Buffy v Drac I liked it, it was kinda fun and had Willow and Tara on the beach which is always a pleasant image (okay, well it is for me anyway!)

Shame they cut out W+T's little joke fest, I always liked the one in family, how they used it to beautifully illustrate how perfect they are for each other, you know that Willow completely understands Tara's sense of humour, however off the wall it is, she finds her funny and understands why Tara finds things funny, see, perfect!

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I am in thunderous agreement, oh glittering, glistening Glorificus! : Jinx in Tough Love

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posted June 25, 2001 17:25

quote:
Originally posted by Scarecrow:
Just like to point out I liked Riley and thought he was good for Buffy, espesially after mopey Angel. Bring him back!
*hides*

Wow, you're brave aren't ya?

As for Buffy v Drac I liked it, it was kinda fun and had Willow and Tara on the beach which is always a pleasant image (okay, well it is for me anyway!)

Shame they cut out W+T's little joke fest, I always liked the one in family, how they used it to beautifully illustrate how perfect they are for each other, you know that Willow completely understands Tara's sense of humour, however off the wall it is, she finds her funny and understands why Tara finds things funny, see, perfect!

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I am in thunderous agreement, oh glittering, glistening Glorificus! : Jinx in Tough Lovequote:IP: LoggedDazeyWillowhand

Posts: 499
Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 26, 2001 00:48

I'd always figured that the "Goddess Thespia" bit in BvD was written specifically to set up "Family," where we get the insect reflection joke and then Buffy and Xander talking about not understanding half of what Tara says. The Buffy/Xander bit would actually make more sense had the Thespia bit not been cut...other than those two instances, when has Tara made esoteric comments around them? I don't know why they cut that and left in the (pretty lame) line about the pain and heartbreak of stinkiness, which honestly to me didn't seem like something Tara would say.

quote:
Originally posted by fell:
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

I would disagree on Angel being older than Drac. Although Bram Stoker did not explicitly connect his vampire creation to the historical figure whose sobriquet he borrowed, popular conception and the media have--including BtVS. Giles says to Willow and Tara, "find out everything you can about the actual legend of Vlad the Impaler"...I don't think he'd do this if, in the Buffyverse, Vlad and Dracula weren't one and the same.

So...Angel has been a vampire for 248 years. Vlad was born in 1431...judging from his appearance he must've gotten vamped in his mid-20s...any way you slice it he's got close to 300 years on Angel.

And then there's Riley...okay, while I never disliked him the way that so many others did, he was never going to be my favorite character...but based on this ep I thought Season 5 was going to be his breakout season. He was really funny. I was all, Yeah, Riley's gonna be a real Scooby now! Alas, 'twas not to be. And ultimately of course, the show and Buffy are better off without him. I still think this was his best ep, though.

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posted June 26, 2001 00:48 I'd always figured that the "Goddess Thespia" bit in BvD was written specifically to set up "Family," where we get the insect reflection joke and then Buffy and Xander talking about not understanding half of what Tara says. The Buffy/Xander bit would actually make more sense had the Thespia bit not been cut...other than those two instances, when has Tara made esoteric comments around them? I don't know why they cut that and left in the (pretty lame) line about the pain and heartbreak of stinkiness, which honestly to me didn't seem like something Tara would say.

quote:
Originally posted by fell:
dracula was the first notable literary vampire, and became the most famous of all vampires. in the buffyverse this makes him, in a way, the original vampire, though at the same time there are many, including angel, who are much older.

I would disagree on Angel being older than Drac. Although Bram Stoker did not explicitly connect his vampire creation to the historical figure whose sobriquet he borrowed, popular conception and the media have--including BtVS. Giles says to Willow and Tara, "find out everything you can about the actual legend of Vlad the Impaler"...I don't think he'd do this if, in the Buffyverse, Vlad and Dracula weren't one and the same.

So...Angel has been a vampire for 248 years. Vlad was born in 1431...judging from his appearance he must've gotten vamped in his mid-20s...any way you slice it he's got close to 300 years on Angel.

And then there's Riley...okay, while I never disliked him the way that so many others did, he was never going to be my favorite character...but based on this ep I thought Season 5 was going to be his breakout season. He was really funny. I was all, Yeah, Riley's gonna be a real Scooby now! Alas, 'twas not to be. And ultimately of course, the show and Buffy are better off without him. I still think this was his best ep, though.
quote:IP: LoggedAnyalvrWillowhand

Posts: 393
Registered: Dec 2000 posted June 26, 2001 02:06