Discussion S6E20 Villains

[Warduke]

After youve seen the episode, this is the place to talk about it.

[b:ad1f7a98ad] Do not discuss spoilers for upcoming episodes in this thread, those belong in the spoiler thread.[/b:ad1f7a98ad]

Also, this thread will be here, in the spoiler forum until the new episode airs Tuesday night, them it will be moved to the main board.

[sheila wt]

I just watched the wildfeed... oh boy...

I don't even know where to start but, I have to say this... if I could, just for one second forget that Tara is dead and all my rage against what ME did with the show and all (which I surely can't), I would say that this was one of the best episodes ever.

I don't watch "ER", but I've seen enough to know it's full of tension, of course. "Villains" makes "ER" looks like "Sesame Street". I was eating my lunch while watching it. At the end, all I had was a plate full of cold food.

I will just go through a few major points, because I want to go and watch it again, so I can pay attention to the details.

Dawn: Still deserving the Kitten Honorary Membership big time. Stayed in the bedroom all the time by herself, becasue she didn't want to leave Tara alone; then, wishing Willow got Warren and kill him (hell, I felt like I was in a ball field cheering for Willow!)

Buffy: Can we change the show's name, please? If she said one more time "we can't kill humans", I was almost hoping that Wllow killed her!

Xander: Argh. Ok, have to be fair here. After one of Buffy's "we can't kill humans", he said that Warren was not better than any of the vamps she dusts every night.

Anya: Looked so different, maybe it was the ponytail? Everybody knows she's a demon again now.

Willow: Wow. More than wow! Ok, granted. Hate the wig, those contacts are way too huge, but the makeup and the outfits are not like the ones we saw on those pics from the final episode, they are kinda cool. And, boy, she rules! I swear, for me, Buffy and Xander were the bad guys, not Willow. Of course, for me, killing Tara is more than enough reason for Warren to die horribly (like he did, although a little too fast for my taste...).

Aly was even more wonderful than ever, if this is possible! The scene in the beginning when she's still in the bedroom and asks for Osiris to help her bring Tara back is a performance to remember. During the whole show, which she takes control of, you easily forget that there's more people on the show. Buffy, who???

Some of the FX are cool, some are cheesy. But it works out good at the end.

Last thing, almost *died* when I heard what Willow said right before she killed Warren...

"Bored now."

p.s. Sorry guys, I know this is not the best report, but I just wanted to let you know a few things at least, as soon as possible. I can elaborate more later after I watch it again.

[AutumnT]

OK. So was Amber in [b:54501d1d65] any[/b:54501d1d65] credits? Was she listed at the end of the episode or completely absent?

[Rally]

Autumn,

Believe it was mentioned in the Wildfeed that she is neither in the credits or even given guest appearance status. Apparently her corpse does not rank billing.

[AutumnT]

Yeah, I got that, but I was wondering if they at least put her in the end credits since they did not at the start. I wasn't sure if the wildfeed folks checked there - I thought they were reporting on the start of episode credits.

[Rally]

I think a magnifying glass is required to view the end credits.

[AutumnT]

LOL. You're right, but I hope someone still looks.

[sheila wt]

She wasn't in the credits. And I just double-checked, she's not listed in the beginning, as she usually was, or in the final credits. Her name isn't anywhere. And she is in, at least, four scenes.

A few more tidbits...

Funy to see Rack afraid of Willow.

The scene with Jonathan and Andrew in jail was a complete waste of time, IMO.

I couldn't help it, when I saw the bus in the desert, BBOvenGuy was the first thing that came to my mind...

I may sound all cheery with the Willow stuff and all, but it was a very sad episode too. I cried two or four times... watching Dawn with Tara, seeing the coroner taking Tara's body... it was very hard, I tell you.

I think I just tried to think more about Willow's actions because we all have been so mad with everything that happened that, for a few minutes, I felt like Willow was avenging all of us, you know?

Maybe I'm not making much sense, which wouldn't be a surprise anyway...

[i:a3ad39fd56] edited to add:[/i:a3ad39fd56]

About the spoilers of Willow confronting Anya... well, there wasn't much of a confrontation there. There was only Willow entering the Magic Box, asking for the "dark books", Anya barely having two sentences out before Willow "freezing" her and getting the books. She made all of them fly to table right in front of her, so she could, literally, get them into her system. That's when her hair and her eyes get black. After consuming all the dark magic from the books.

Also, after Anya tells Xander and Buffy she's back to vengeance land, she says she would've helped Willow, but Willlow didn't want her to, because she wanted to take care of Warren herself.

[drusilla(d)]

is there a place online that i can download the episode? Can anyone please please please give me the link? Thanks in advance =)

[AutumnT]

[quote:7dc0607792][b:7dc0607792][i:7dc0607792]Quote:[/i:7dc0607792][/b:7dc0607792]

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Her name isn't anywhere.

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[/quote:7dc0607792] This really pisses me off. I imagine it was great fun to play a dead body for a whole episode.

[helpful information perha]

thank you for your thoughts on this episode Shelia

As you have presented your take on this episode, I couldn't help but think that here in lies the real danger in what ME is "preaching" to the kids and teens and young adults it targets with this show. They are making it exciting an appropriate to respond to violence with violence

"killing a human" has previously been explored with the buffy/faith story line and presented as horribly wrong even if it occurs in the heat of battle, with murder of a human always resulting in very serious consequences (faiths whole story line and her now residing in jail).

But this basic tenet of the buffyverse, indeed the buffyverse moral imperitive as well as the slayer/buffy who is delivering it, have both been seriously damaged in their credibility via last season and this and thus the message they represent becomes the less desirable to hear, fans want buffy to just shut up already and let the killing begin

Buffy has been marginalized and her "moral code and moral authority" as the slayer have been deminished by her actions in this years storyline. She is no longer the hero she once was and she can not speak with the authority of a hero and be taken seriously, she's become defined by who she sleeps with, undead evil and she and her message is lesser for it. Her words now ring "sanctamonious"

Buffy tells willow that they have to work through the "law" rather than work as vigilantes, but the fans have been lead by the writers to deminish their read on buffys beliefs because she herself has been demininshed by the writers

the fans have been lead to thrist for blood, not justice.
Its what they have been made to desire and see as the correct response to pain and suffering and injustice

the writers have the fans in a feeding frenzy for blood, the cops just taking the baddies in isn't going to do it

and I can't help but feel how very sad that the writers have given vengeance/vigilante justince the moral high ground

Isn't that exactly what so many terror groups are teaching, do we really need another generation being told that strapping on bombs/dark magic and going off to take down the enemy yourself is the only way to end the pain and get even in this world?

[sheila wt]

It pissed me off too. I went through the credits 3 times, because I just couldn't believe it!

There's one thing that I still can't swallow. Since I saw the promo last week I have a huge problem with Willow leaving Tara's body like that. Ok, she wants to get Warren. I got it. She's hurt beyond understand. I got it. But still, I just can't see her leaving Tara's body on the floor, the exact same way as it was on her lap (in a very awkward position). It was like somebody just threw the body there, for God's sake!

I could see her putting Tara's body on the bed, in amore decent position. Or, whatever, even on the floor, but not like that.

It's hard for me to see Willow doing that. But then, she's another Willow now. It's not our Willow anymore.

[Sivi27]

I just finished watching it. No Amber in credits, anywhere. This in itself - and the opening scene - made me want to stop watching the episode altogether.

Aly's performance in the beginning killed me. I was bawling, straight from the top. It's that combination of trying to exert power and at the same time begging in her voice that brings out the two sides of her that we know: the insecurity and the desire for control. And, of course, Amber just [i:2264b83d30] lying[/i:2264b83d30] there... I lost it, completely.

Trio - completely worthless. I don't see why they were here to begin with, I don't understand it now. That scene in jail could have been scrapped - it was too long and didn't even come close to being "light" or "entertaining" or "funny" in the rest of the episode. It was simply distracting.

Xander, to my great surprise, was bearable in this episode. Not great, and a fucking lousy friend to Willow, but on the whole, he was bearable. Same goes for Buffy - the "you can't kill humans" thing seemed moralistic but in the end, Buffy stated clearly that she didn't want Willow to do it because of what it would do to Willow, which redeems her in my book. Dawn, during this whole speech, looks like she's biting back some really acidy comments; she's got her rebel boots on and for once, I'm with her all the way.

Anya's part in this episode is limited, to say the least, and when someone commented in the wildfeed that she looks "shocked" at what Willow did - to me, it seemed more like a general sadness for Willow than it did like a shock for her actions. (It bears noting that there is literally *nothing* left of Warren when the episode ends. The incineration pretty much means that he implodes, leaves some CGI-sparkles, and is just gone.)

But, since we all care about Willow most... god, I don't know where to start. They alternated the shots of her with the black contacts with just Aly's normal eyes (the color of which was magnified like, zillions by the contrast in the dark hair/outfit) as a ploy to .. I don't know, show her inner struggle between vengeance-Willow and regular-Willow. It was heartbreaking, independent of their intentions. The contacts don't work for me, they make her look dummy-ish, but then flicking in those bits of regular eyes... she looks so sad yet determined the whole episode, and there are certain parts where her speech skips like it does when she's nervous or in babble-mode, and ... I don't know, I think you need to see it in order to understand why I sat here and pretty much took my monitor in my hands and shook it, saying "Why?" over and over again.

Some things that really bugged the Christ out of me - why the hell Xander lets her walk off in the beginning of the episode. Dude, she was upstairs, yet she somehow has blood all over her, and he just answers her question as to who did it and lets her walk off. He was with Buffy the whole time except when flagging in the ambulance, she came from inside the house,... Xander, use your fucking head! For someone that calls Willow one of the two people he "wouldn't know what to do without", he's pretty oblivious to the large BLOODSTAINS on her WHITE BLOUSE and the WEIRD TONE OF VOICE she uses to speak to him. He was bearable the rest of the episode, but that just made me want to knock him right out.

Another thing is that with the extra money ME got from UPN, you'd think that their special effects this season would be worth noting, but I was far from impressed. I suggest that next time they want a sweeps stunt, they give some more money to wardrobe, less money (and arrogance) to the writing staff, come up with a better plot, and leave out the pretty flamey/icey/flying things. If we wanted Star Wars, we'd go watch Star Wars, and in either case, this didn't even come close to a cheap imitation of Star Wars.

My shout-outs this episode are limited. Dawn is now officially my favorite character left on the show and I harbor hope that she will knock Buffy out in a future episode. Clem is a cutie, and he (unlike the Trio) actually works as comedic levity in an otherwise uncomparable bleak episode. The biggest shout-out this episode goes to Alyson, for having to do this despite her obvious hesitation as expressed in that mid-season interview people have been mentioning all over the place lately, and making it work. I literally felt Willow's pain, and I felt pain for Willow, and then I felt like vomiting, and all of that was simply because she came, saw, and conquered this extremely disturbing and depressing and WRONG episode.

On the whole, I was less than impressed. Whereas the end of Seeing Red didn't get me to cry, this episode made me want to vomit and cry and hit my head repeatedly against a blunt object, which I guess by Joss' logic means that this was a really goddamn good sweeps episode. By my ratings, I think that Marti Noxon should be prohibited to ever write for this show again, god forbid command it. Watch at your own risk, folks.

Note: I just spell-checked and it wanted to change "Xander" to "Expander". Funny coincidence or accurate observation? [i:2264b83d30] You be the judge.[/i:2264b83d30] Inappropriate humor, I know, but I need something to laugh about after having watched this.

Edited to add - Sheila, god, I was thinking the exact same thing. How could they just let her lie there the whole freaking episode? It might fit the moods of the characters at that moment, but for me, it was just the last straw to making me loathe ME's treatment of Amber.

[sheila wt]

I understand what you say, helpful information perhaps.

I'm afraid this is only one more of the negative messages that young people may get from this season. We all know another big one that came with Tara's death.

But, at the same time, and I'm talking here only about killing the bad guy, I have my doubts about how bad this can be in the big picture, since we see the bad guy being killed in almost every single TV show, be it a cop show, a fantasy/sci-fi show, whatever. IMO, there's a limit at what you can expect of a TV show. They will never, ever be the best way to teach children about life. They are not supposed to be like that (even if, unfortunately, they are sometimes...).

We can't forget that Buffy is a fantasy show. And, as much as I have *huge* problems with how it handles real life issues, like how they treated the lesbian couple, I don't have such big problems in seeing a witch using all kinds of cool FX to take the bad guy's skin off and put him on fire, disappearing in front of your eyes right after it.

This is not real life.

But I sincerely understand your point of view, and your worry.

[AutumnT]

Expander.

[b:e89475678b] snort[/b:e89475678b]

I wanted to thank people for the write ups. I appreciate hearing other kitten's thoughts.

[Sivi27]

Always happy to amuse you, Autumn. And remember - the spellchecker [b:5e5de547c5] sees all[/b:5e5de547c5].

[Warduke]

I just watched it but I really dont have much to say, I'm pretty numb.

Ill say that I do like Dawn more then I ever have.

I knew seeing Taras body would bother me but it bothered me more than I thought, seeing her lying on the floor and then the coroner taking her away

And the end, I so enjoy it, I only wish he would have been tortured for much longer, and the end, when she skins him, it was truly a sweet moment, and then fried his assburn in hell motherfucker.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, this show is complete crap now.

[JoanneHillier]

Well I just seen the episode and well I don't see how Willow will come back from that. I just don't see how.

Also in a way, I wish I could be like Willow, I feel so much sadness and rage right now with personal issues.

But anyways I'm still angry about Tara to.

Anyways I still don't know how Willow will come back, she seem to have trouble coming before, I don't see how it is possible now.

[scifiacid]

Ya know, all this talk about Buffy not killing humans... did she kill a knight, or two at the end of last season when they were running from Glory? I could have sworn at least one she stabbed with his own sword and another got tossed, brutally, off the camper? So, huh?

Just edding my crapo spelling!

[Epicurus]

Oh yeah but all of Buffy's are [i:b4dd844b9b]justified[/i:b4dd844b9b] cause she's just doing her job. Whatfuckingever.
Not like she takes pleasure in killing beings that rememble humans or anything. She's never had to deal with loosing a SO unjustly at the hands of these so called "innocents". How frickin noble would she be if she were in Willows spot.

[Tricia]

Can I just say, "Dear Lord!!" Villains just aired here and thank the Gods The Yoko Factor is airing next for some W/T goodness. I must say, I do like DMW and AH does an amazing job! My heart was racing so fast during the last scene with Willow and Warren, but I think my mouth dropped open at Warren's demise. That was.... that was kinda gross actually. The "shhhh" line is so wonderfully creepy. Umm, why does Spike have to go all the way to Africa to find a "cure"? Does this have something to do with the first slayer? Is that where it all began, in Africa?

T.

[Warduke]

Adrienne, in Spiral we saw Buffy kill at least one knight, but there's this very interesting dialog between Buffy and one of the knights...

BUFFY: One of my friends was hurt when you attacked us.
DANTE: And ten of my men are dead. Honorable men.

So how the other nine men die?

But it's ok because they were attacking Buffy and she was just defending herself and Dawn, but Willow can't have any kind of revenge, because that would be wrong (in the tone of Faith in Buffy's body).

[ForeverPiper]

I just read the wildfeed and my eyes almost poped out of my skull when Willow said "Bored Now"!!! That was something I totally wasn't expecting.

And what she did to Warren! Don't get me wrong I think Warren deserved what he got...but Willow definetly will never be the same again. But DAMN that was brutal!

And Buffy can go piss herself for all I care...not kill humans my ass!

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[i:d190c2af39] Oh I could just see a British Slayer! *bad English accent* Ecuse me mister vampire...could you quite possibly refrain from killing whilst I take my tea break?[/i:d190c2af39]- Buffy in Lisa's Reward and Reprisal

[sheila wt]

These are a few lines from the end of the episode, one of the most powerful (and painful) scenes, IMO. It happens when Willow is almost done torturing Warren:

Willow (talking about the bullet she has in her hands, the one she took off Buffy's chest): "A tiny piece of metal... destroys everything. It ripped her insides out. Took her light away. From me... from the world. Now, the one person who should be here is gone. And a waste like you gets to live."

I agree with Sivi27 that Aly conquered the episode. I think that's why I liked it. I love her as much I love Amber, they're just fantastic actresses. And Aly had, finally, a big chance to show that (why does it always have to be like that??? Couldn't them just let her do it without killing off Tara and making her all dark??). Sivi27, you so well pointed out the nuances on Willow's behavior during the episode, like a conflict was going on deep inside, but would not be allowed to interfere with the vengeance plans. You could almost feel her inner battle and just want to hold her to make things better but, at the same time, you'd be too impressed and scared with her calm and cold behavior.

I still think I liked this episode because I saw Willow as the instrument of my own personal rage against everything that happened... but, who knows?

[lustitana]

The begining of this episode did not ring true for me at all. I just sat there, crying and yelling at my tv screen. I can't imagine Willow leaving Tara there all alone and not telling anyone. I'm mad, mad, mad.

Again I have to agree with everyone else on the jail scene. Totally useless. And the "Partner in crime" line, ME has really lost their grasp of subtlety.

Otherwise I enjoyed heartbroken pissed off Dawn, its good to see her acting human instead of like a whiny brat. Anya looked gorgeous.

And Willow, oh Willow. Aly acted her heart out within this crap storyline. DMW is hot in a creepy sort of way. I loved watching her give Warren what he deserved. And the "Bored Now" I thought I was going to burst!

Warren still makes me feel dirty though. Even tied up hes a creep mouthy little bastard.

[Sivi27]

[quote:7b4e051b55][b:7b4e051b55][i:7b4e051b55]Quote:[/i:7b4e051b55][/b:7b4e051b55]

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Sivi27, you so well pointed out the nuances on Willow's behavior during the episode.

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[/quote:7b4e051b55]

Aww, shucks. Thanks. I ran short on the powers of description. It's really something you have to see, Aly's expressions and gestures are so visual that putting them into words just doesn't do the acting justice.

Oh, and I forgot to mention - in spite of how generally nauseous I felt, my heart skipped a beat every time she came on scene, because she looked absolutely stunning this whole episode, fugly contacts aside. Hey, wardrobe? Yeah. MORE BLACK ON ALYSON, preferably leather. Much love, Sylvia.

[Canadian Kitty]

Well that was as painful as it could have been. And to think that once upon a time I actually drank tea while watching Buffy. Need the stronger stuff now and am currently on my third beer.

Oh but Alyson. She got passed that horrible outfit, the Munster-like hair and those ridiculous contacts to give a spectacular performance. It was heart wrenching to see little glimpses of the real Willow through all that darkness. Its a pity Alys brilliance is showcased with such a ridiculous storyline. How ME plan to salvage Willow from all this mess is beyond me. But then I dont smoke crack.

And that scene with Dawn in the bedroom watching over Tara, I think I need another beer.

There were some truly great scenes in this episode, most of them Alysons, but to me there were several that fell flat, particularly when Xander and Buffy found out Anya was a vengeance demon. And Xander, while not vomit inducing tonight, is still an ass. Just in case anyone was wondering.

I'd discuss Tara but, well, that would lead to ranting.

CK

[Rally]

[quote:67b11b2ac4][b:67b11b2ac4][i:67b11b2ac4]Quote:[/i:67b11b2ac4][/b:67b11b2ac4]

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And Xander, while not vomit inducing tonight, is still an ass.

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[/quote:67b11b2ac4]
It's not a reach to believe that statement.

[sheila wt]

[quote:b661837916][b:b661837916][i:b661837916]Quote:[/i:b661837916][/b:b661837916]

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"There were some truly great scenes in this episode, most of them Alysons, but to me there were several that fell flat, particularly when Xander and Buffy found out Anya was a vengeance demon. And Xander, while not vomit inducing tonight, is still an ass."

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[/quote:b661837916]

As I said before, I hardly noticed that there was other people in the show besides Alyson.

I agree with you, Xander and Buffy's reaction when they realized that Anya was a demon again, was about the same as if she had just told them she was going to get a haircut.

Amazing how Xander gets worse at every episode. Even when he doesn't do anything! In fact, I think he would be more alive if he was dead. I can't even think how in hell someone can possibly think (or want us to think) that he's Willow best friend! C'mon, you see your "best friend" wearing a shirt full of blood and you don't even ask what happened????? Give me a fucking break.

Moving to nicer thoughts... loved Clem! He's always so real-life, low profile funny.

[JoanneHillier]

[quote:20c0f8156a][b:20c0f8156a][i:20c0f8156a]Quote:[/i:20c0f8156a][/b:20c0f8156a]

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But it's ok because they were attacking Buffy and she was just defending herself and Dawn, but Willow can't have any kind of revenge, because that would be wrong (in the tone of Faith in Buffy's body).

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[/quote:20c0f8156a]

I don't think we can really even mention the two things in the same sentence.

One what Willow did was more then revenge, period. It was brutal and when she had him, she didn't have to do anything else. She had him.

Buffy is more so defending herself, Sunnydale, etc. then what Willow did tonight.

I can't talk anymore, I'm too angry at my life and other things, and well I'm ready to get a hammer and break this monitor into a million pieces because of personal stuff. I fucking hate my life and I'm fucking sick of myself.

Let's fucking not try to justify Willow. Don't care if people flame me for that or not or talk behind my fucking back.