Willow as sexual aggressor (No Spoilers!)

[wiccie]

And now for something completely different (while we bite our nails waiting for the next new ep)...

There has been much discussion of late in other threads about When W/T Did It, Willow On Top, etc., which got me thinking:

There's a strong pattern of Willow being impatient/aggressive about sex. Sure, she's a big spaz (as am I - maybe we could have a Spaz Pride Parade someday*G*), but once she decides she wants someone, she kind of pushes for it.

Xander - she was constantly dropping hints in her insecure-nerdy way, then the spell of "B,B&B" is cast and we get a glimpse of Sex Kitten Willow. Yes, it was a spell, but she had real feeling for Xander before (and after), so I see the spell as magnifying her emotions. Also, first hint of her prediliction for well, licking, when she vigorously attacks Xander's ear.

With Oz, he rebuffed and slowed her down twice before they took significant steps in their physical relationship. She seems to become sexually impulsive, but Oz knows it isn't the right time to move things forward, so she waits until he gives the go ahead (Grad Day).

Of course, Vamp Willow showed more signs of this, including the continued use of tongue. The vamp person is based on the original personality.

So, projecting this pattern into the 4th season and meeting Tara, I can see Willow being kind of unsure and awkward in her attraction, then having an impulsive, desirous moment and taking the first step with Tara physically.

How they progressed after that is being discussed in other threads, but I had to get this theory out to the Kittens.

Discuss.

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited November 11, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by wiccie (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

definitely vamp willow got everything how and when she wanted it, and she hungered for it all the time. the way she fed, the way she played with the puppy, the way she hit on everyone. lol. she is a part of willow, primal willow, like the first slayer for Buffy.

i agree Willow probably made the sexual first move but Tara made the first move on Willow.

i have more to say on this topic but cant right now. i just started having my first cup of coffee for the day so i may pop around later and finish my thoughts.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Wiccie, it's great 2 cya on the Kitten Board again!!! Been reading ur posts 4 ages...and u never fail 2 make me smile,and laugh and almost die laughing...hehehe!! THANX! xx

This is a great theory! I'm completely sure that Willow was most likely to make the first sexual move on Tara!

I'm sure that Tara is more the submissive partner in the relationship...but I still reckon that she could also be aggressive!

We know that Tara isn't afraid to ask Willow for...erm...favours *cough!* because of those brilliant and most gorgeous "Come 2 bed eyes!" that she gave Willow in their Floating O scene in OMWF.

Willow definitely made the first sexual move...but I think that Tara made her feelings known to Willow first. In NMR when Willow tells Buffy about her and Tara, it is clear that Willow knows that Tara has fallen in love with her.

I know that people probably think that they were a couple b4 NMR, but I reckon that Willow was still uncertain about her feelings 4 Tara b4 then...and that's why it took Oz's returns 2 help her realise that she loved Tara.

N e way - rant over...great topic btw!!

Love 2 all Kittens....cuz u guys rock!!
Love
Emma
xxxx

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"I think being a beautiful, heavy lesbian witch rocks!" - AMBER BENSON

[This message has been edited by Darn Salem Judges! (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I agree that Tara is the one who is pushes her relationship with Willow along until it came to the physical relationship at the end of NMR(here comes the argument ).

I think Tara is still not sure if Willow feels the same way about her, so she will not pursue a physical relationship until Willow is ready. Also, it is probably Tara's first time ever. This is another reason why Tara does not push it. She does not want to risk being hurt.

At the end of NMR, Tara gladly allows their
relationship to become sexual because Willow has finally made a commitment to her.
Tara is excited and nervous as well.

I want a flashback !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Not the NMR debate again, the when is not a question, besides there is another thread for that. I well believe Willow might have taken the first step, but I have always felt that Tara might be a lot less shy in private than she was in public in the beginning. In the Willowhand scene it she who smiles rather -uhm- predatory and Willow has the cute shy smile. In the Body during the flashback dinner scene Tara starts talking about tummy rubbing and Willow is the one who stops her seemingly slightly embarrassed. Ho hum, well must rewatch all the W/T scenes for further clues now. *sigh*

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Thanks for the replies, Kittens! Glad to be back, DSJ.

Without necessarily getting into the endless W/T When and How debate, I'll agree that Tara certainly persued Willow emotionally, but it seems more like Willow to initiate the first kiss (or whatever).

Willow mentions in "TL" that Tara has been "out" longer, so she may not have been Tara's "first"...But that's a different thread.

I guess I was just curious if anyone else saw this impatient/impulsive pattern from Willow.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Great topic!

I didn't start watching the show until the middle of the 4th season(read the start of W/T...), but having dedicated a LOTS of free time to playing catch-up I feel pretty much ready to throw in my 2 cents worth! Let me just say though that reading the Watcher Guides and all the internet info does NOT compare to actually getting to watch the old eps on FX, God bless 'em! Watching Aly play this part is s-o-o-o revealing...the character comes alive!

Willow is definetely an aggressor...in anything she does, she gives it her all. Once she sets her sights on a goal she is relentless in her pursuit of not only it, but mastery over in. Be it academic or personnel, she can't stand to be second to anyone...she has shown this time and time again. I'm sure sex is no different.(Lucky Tara!!! ) I have been surprised watching the older eps at how aggresive she could be sexually...now I wonder why...

The Junky...under that shy, nerdy exterior lies the heart of a true Dominatrix...Oh, Mama!

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Well just because she bottoms, doesn't mean Tara isn't clear in her desires.

Aesthetically, I like the idea of Willow on top, i mean I like the other way too, don't get me wrong, but something about Willow having he way with Tara, hmm ...

And yes, Tara gets what she wants, that look on the bed said it all. Now Willow, NOW!

I am sure Tara returns the favor, it's not like she doesn't, but I am pretty sure Tara let Willow makes the move. Tara was shy and insecure but also respectful. She was going to make sure Willow really wanted that and that would mean Willow would have to initiate.

Also, I love the idea of Willow the active womanlover. It's one thing for people to think hey, Willow likes girls, look at her as Tara makes love to Willow. It's quite another to see Willow take pleasure from loving a woman. If that doesn't like cement the whole thing, I don't know what would.

I am sorry, that was not very coherent or intelligent, but hmm I am very flushed and flustered now, I don't know why.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Although I do agree with Willow being the sexual aggressor, Garfield does bring up a good point, Tara is very shy around other people but when shes alone with Willow, shes not so shy so I believe that theyre both not shy about saying what they want when theyre alone together.

I do believe that Willow would have probably initiated the physical part of their relationship but I wouldnt be shocked if it was Tara.

wiccie, I took the been out longer comment in TL as Willow knowing that Tara knew that she was gay before she met Willow, she probably knew for a very long time that she was gay. Tara was just so shy when she first met Willow (and just look at her home life) that I truly believe Willow was her first.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Tara being out longer may mean she knew she
was attracted to girls before Willow. Not necessarily that she has been intimate with
any of them. I really do not think so. Her
father would not be happy that Tara is gay.

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Yes, I'm %100 for the idea of Willow being Tara's first for the romance factor alone. Some of us are "out" quite a while before getting the nook-nook.

So, I'm curious why no one has commented yet about Willow's prediliction for licking - long before she met Tara.

Where's Ruth?

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Wiccie please! There are 30 year olds in the room. You already managed to fluster Xita withthis thread, what more do you want?

*fans himself*

I

[Unregistered(d)]

But Dr.G, I start all my threads with the intent to fluster - even if they seem all intellectual at first.

Here, take the brain...I think it's broken.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Great topic Wiccie, talking about sex is always a good way to start the day

I've always loved the fact that Willow is sexually uninhibited and aggressive, mainly because to look at her in the early seasons, it's kind of hard to believe, she looks such an innocent little thing.

I'm positive that Tara is a horny little vixen in private, but I do believe Willow would have made the first move sexually, it seems to fit her previous habits!

It seems to me that when Willow is attracted to someone she won't stop until she gets what she wants and we all know what she wants from Tara

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I am in thunderous agreement, oh glittering, glistening Glorificus! : Jinx in Tough Love

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Well wiccie, when I think of Willows feelings about women before Tara I think of the movie But Im A Cheerleader, where Natasha Lyonnes character has these feelings for girls but thinks that every girl has these feelings, so its not strange or bad, she may have had crushes on a few girls before Tara, maybe even a little crush on Buffy or Jenny Calendar.

Then of course Willow meets Vamp Willow and she tells Buffy that her alternate self is gay, that with what Angel said, there is no way that someone like Willow did not analyze this to death but I think for Willow, it wasnt a big a deal, I could be very wrong but I dont think it would have freaked her out realizing she was sexually attracted to women, just something else she found out about herself

I

[Unregistered(d)]

quote:

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Originally posted by wiccie:
[B]Some of us are "out" quite a while before getting the nook-nook.
/B]

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Oh lordy yes*S*

Personally, based solely on rewatching eps up to end of S5 from the start recently I was surprised by just how fast Willow's agressiveness is actually developed and put up there on screen. Hints at least... I remembered it very differently, maybe I was just looking for it though...

Got to agree about Vamp Willow, trying to get a handle on her for a fic and it took me the longest time to come up with the idea that she was really just primal Willow rather than a development of her. Oh if this thread had appeared 2 weeks ago... Course I'd still have been watching those eps again!

Katharyn

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She's my always

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Excellent analogy, Warduke.

It's interesting, too, that Willow is shown as the one with the slightly roving eye - perhaps another indicator of her sexually assertive nature?

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Willow the Witch, Mistress of Pain. gotta love a girl who looks that good in leather.

i always wondered if meeting her doppelganger would have caused willow to question who she really was, especially once she realized she was attracted to tara. it's no surprise that someone as intellectually dominant as willow would take charge in a situation once she feels emotionally secure.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Willow. Big with the butch in the sheets. No doubts whatsover.
*Tabitha suddenly goes into fey "take me" superfemme mode*

But Tara is the emotional Top.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I don't know that I'm really adding anything new, but count me in the group that believes that, while they are both capable of being sexually assertive, Willow probably made the first move physically. Not just because Tara was shy, but Tara seems to have come into this relationship comfortable with the fact that she is attracted to women, whereas Willow was just discovering this about herself (at least that's how it played to me, especially after the "You've been out way longer than me" comment)I think Tara would have tended to give Willow some space to figure out what she wanted. And was thrilled when what she wanted was Tara

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Very interesting topic!

Ummm...I think Willow is the sexual "top" of the relationship, but that doesn't mean she absolutely made the first move. (Though, she probably did.)

For example, when I was a senior in high school, I had my first lesbian experience. I had had crushes on girls before, but never actually considered that I was "gay." It took a shy girl who was totally besotted with me (that was NEW!) to kiss me long and hard for me to wake up. After that kiss, *I* was the aggressor of our ensuing relationship. I finally figured out who I was. She, on the other hand, was happy to play "bottom" (which kind of figures since she eventually headed back to Boysville). Anyway, my point is that it's *possible* that Tara made a small physical move before NMR to shake Willow out of any reticence she had about the new turn her life was taking. And since their W/T's first sexual encounter was a first of sorts for both of them, the aggressiveness or passivity might have changed, er...hands a few times that night. After that, though, I'm convinced that Willow was the aggressor, as she has been the entire show.

But, it is my personal belief that "bottoms" have most of the power in bed, so Tara is doing just fine, thanks. But that's another post....

Amy

[This message has been edited by Willowlicious (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

heh heh heh...fun topic.

In essence, I agree. Willow has generally been the agressor. VampWillow is an example of what she'd be like without any brakes ([i:e9c69a5352]yikes![/i:e9c69a5352]).

Yet Tara isn't simply quieter than Willow. She's also more self-controlled, methinks the wiser of them, as well as the more self-aware.

So I'd say Tara knew how she felt before Willow had a clue. But that Willow was the one who actually [i:e9c69a5352]acted[/i:e9c69a5352] first...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I'm here now.

This is a really interesting topic. I've always seen Willow as the more sexually aggressive of the two, taking the initiative in a lot of ways. But you know, that doesn't mean Tara is unable to either ask for or get exactly what she wants. Heh.

A possible reason for Willow's role in the relationship might be explained by something that I think happens to um...other people. Uh, not me. Ahem. You know how when you've never had sex, and you think about having it. And then you actually have it...and it's like, you never want to do anything else ever again except shag. Add that to the fact that you're now a sexual being who can fulfil all those things you used to think about all the time...and well, you've kind of opened up a door.

See, I think Willow's always had the tendency to be sexually aggressive. But she's never found herself in the position to feel confident enough to go with it. With Oz, I suppose she felt relaxed and loved enough to instigate sex when she wanted to. And it's the same with Tara, only like, magnified 1,000,000 times. Heh heh.

And I'm of the opinion that sex with Tara must be so bloody wonderful, that it's not a surprise Willow sometimes gets the itch and can't control it. And honestly, that's Tara's sexual initiative.

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"I'm not large with the butch." ~ Willow

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I don't think that saying that Willow is sexually agressive is accurate. While she might be sexually assertive and the initiator of physical intimacy, agression implies an unwilling victim and some degree coercion, even if only through insistance.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I think it depends on your point of view. Aggression is defined as "having or showing determination and energetic pursuit of your ends." I can see Willow as determined and energetic in pursuit of Tara sexually; that doesn't mean she's forcing herself on Tara, it just means she's focused and enthusiastic! Typical Willow.

And Ruth, what about the licking? Wiccie wanted to have more discussion about the licking!

I

[Unregistered(d)]

According to my dictionary it's pretty much semantics.

An agressor:

1. Someone who attacks
2. A confident assertive person who acts as instigator

aggressive:

1. Having or showing determination and energetic pursuit of your ends
2. Marked by aggressive ambition and energy and initiative
3. Tending to spread quickly
4. Characteristic of an enemy or one eager to fight

Assertive:
1. Inclined to bold and confident assertion; aggressively self-assured.
2. Confidently aggressive

I think definition 1 of both aggressor and aggressive fit Willow's sexual practices

Oh and about the licking, both Willow and Vamp Willow have shown that they like licking, necks in particular. I'd say that Willow rather enjoys using her tongue and I'd dare say Tara quite enjoys it when she does.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited November 11, 2001).]

I

[Unregistered(d)]

quote:

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Originally posted by Warduke:
Well wiccie, when I think of Willows feelings about women before Tara I think of the movie But Im A Cheerleader, where Natasha Lyonnes character has these feelings for girls but thinks that every girl has these feelings, so its not strange or bad, she may have had crushes on a few girls before Tara, maybe even a little crush on Buffy or Jenny Calendar.
< snipped >

---

Actually this is a very good point. I am quite certain that Willow did have a bit of a crush on Jenny. Willow always looked up to authority figures and teachers in particular. Now here comes along a young, attractive and cool computer teacher! I was thinking about this while working on my new Willow/Tara pages (coming to a webserver soon!) and wondering what would ahve happened if Jenny had lived. I don't see anything happening between the two, but Willow would have emulated her even more.

I doubt though she did on Buffy. No good reason, it just doesn't click in me. Cordy...I don't know. I doubt it, her reaction to Xander kissing her (Cordy) was a bit much.

Willow might be the sexually assertative one of the pair, though I quite sure they both get what they want.
Maybe they have master/slave days were Tara get's wants she wants! Ok, now I am going into strange turf. But given the physical displays UPN has been giving us, we might get to see that....

If my years of dating are any indication (thank the gods those days are over!), it is beware the quiet ones.

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@home.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/~theotherside/
The DnD Community Council: http://www.dndcommunitycouncil.org/nbownw
--
The d20 writer's mantra, "If it's not OGC, let it be."

I

[Unregistered(d)]

Well,one of my friend said "you'll never know what the spaz can do,they are unbelievable in bed"

I think it's like a conflict of the personality.

I

[Unregistered(d)]

quote:

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Originally posted by tommo:
You know how when you've never had sex, and you think about having it. And then you actually have it...and it's like, you never want to do anything else ever again except shag.

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I have no idea what you're talking about.

~BTG
(no one's buying that from me, are they?)

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"I love you so much I almost forgot to brood!" -Wesley (as Angel)

I

[Unregistered(d)]

I'd like to chime in with a "Yeah, I'll buy that" on this topic, and add a few things.

I'd say Willow generally isn't "impulsive" sexually. Yes, she's done a few things that might be termed "impulsive", but that's generally after thinking them through thoroughly and working herself into a dither about all the possible outcomes. Willow is very much an intellectual being ... she's comfortable on an intellectual level in ways that she isn't physically and emotionally.

The upshot of this is, she analyzes things to death on the mental level, works her emotional level up to a frenzy, then sort of explodes - not because she's naturally impulsive, but because she naturally ISN'T and she gets fed up with herself.

Then she goes back into Mental Mode and works out a 'plan'. I seem to recall Barry White, candles, Oz... no parents home... that was a very calculated scene. It was "aggressive", as she was the one making the move, but it was by no means "impulsive".

NMR (assuming that was the big First Time... which some people do, some people don't - for the sake of this example, just stretch your imagination for a moment) is another fine example of aggression without impulsivity (is that a word? *G*). She spent the whole episode doing the "Oz? Tara? Oz? Tara?" thing. Because of all the thought she put into her relationships with those two, showing up at Tara's door with an Extra Flamey Candle really wasn't impulsive. Now, if she'd done that EARLIER...

Willow as an aggressor I'll totally buy. Willow as an impulsive aggressor? Not so much.

And to sum up what I've seen in this thread so far... Willow is a top with an oral fixation?

Lucky, LUCKY Tara.

-Sassette

I