tazraven
Oh wow, Sara, thank
you.
It's not that it was sexy, per se, which at times it was. It was more like it made me feel uncomfortable, and voyeuristic, and hopeful, and depressed, and happy, all at the same time.
I think the
setting was sexy, but they didn't do anything (at least not at first) that could be described as sexy. I wanted to create a velvety, dark and yes voyeuristic scenario.
Normally when tensions are released and they share a hard kiss, I find it difficult to believe. But if your characters had done that, I would have taken the scene in without my usual gran of salt.
It would have been cheap, I think, if they had kissed. Not that kisses are cheap; but for me as a writer, it would have been a cop-out. Build up the tension, have them kiss roughly, relieve the tension. In a way, the dance did that, but only after things have cooled down.
Re: dialogue being ambiguous. Initially it was clear who was talking, but as the conversation (and scenario) became more surreal, it became blurred and I wanted to show that one or the other could have said those words. Their feelings, so distant when they entered the room, had come together in a weird unexpected way.
Thanks for your astute analysis, and yay for dibs.
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CamYes, the intention was that things got more surreal as the conversation wore on. If I could do lighting effects I would have dimmed the lights, or somehow did some David Lynch-y effects. In the beginning of the chapter, you could have discerned who was speaking, but towards the end you weren't supposed to.

@being a good little Virgo, I think I made you scratch your head there.
Surreal, and uncomfortable
Yes to surreal, and I'm glad you felt uncomfortable (well, not glad-glad). Though, it was a comfortable kind of discomfort, I hope you got the sense that things have changed, and perhaps in the right direction, even with the being uncomfortable.
Interesting observation about the need for justification. You're right, Tara is being contrary. Of course she is justifying herself to Willow, subconsciously that's the target she's been working on in her mind during the past 3 weeks. She
knows Willow knows what type of place the club is, and dammit she will show Willow it's not degrading, abusive, cheap etc. Willow is still as judgmental as ever, that's true. They both seem to be paying lip service to...what they think they should each be saying.
Who are you, to hold my heart so?
which once again could be either of them speaking
To be honest,
I can't even tell who said that.
Being a heathen, I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the finer points of the room being a (not the...hee!) Garden of Eden. Having gone against the "no touching" rule (forbidden fruit), they'll obviously have to leave (be ejected), even if they aren't kicked out by some burly bouncer (God).

Very clever! I'm not sure I consciously put all that together, but I definitely intended the play on the Garden of Eden and forbidden fruit angle. What is ejected? Let's hope it's their uncertainties.
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Dianneswillowtreechanting , chanting, chanting chanting

Thanks! Next chapter is planted firmly on solid ground, so not much chanting needed.
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EmmsThanks!
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ChummyI Love the way Will keep wanting Tara and didn't want to let her go, I also love the way that Tara was pushing Will away.
Well I think by bringing Willow into the private room Tara isn't necessarily pushing her away, it's just they both need to shed some of their uncertainties and know what they want to do. Thanks.
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cantbefredlessThanks!
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dbFirst off, I'd like to officially welcome you as La Grande Dame (not that you're old, it's the gravitas of the position) of the Feedback Essay Club. That honor used to be Car's but she's kinda retired. I think we need to make you a tiara for that, won't it look pretty?
Yes to all of heart wrenching, painful, touching and sexy. The setting itself was unreal -- there's no hiding what the room is used for normally, and yet what they are baring in there aren't their bodies, but their souls.
I totally get how Willow would feel confused, betrayed, and maybe a little... I dunno, ashamed of Tara or pity or something. It was unclear... But Willow's questions were harsh.
Willow on one hand wants to be tolerant and open-minded. After all, her colleagues are the mainstay clients of this place and she of all people know about supply/demand. But there is still this innocent thought in her head that it's okay for other people to be in this line of work, but not Tara.
I am sure she (Tara) has reconciled herself to the realities of her job by this point
and
Tara had *nothing*.
and
When Tara tells Willow to go back to her privileged life and that she (Tara) belongs to a different part of society (the underbelly... i.e. the bowels).
I didn't fall into some godforsaken hole, I've always been in that hole!"
*gulp*
Yep, her job never bothered Tara because she has put herself, and has been raised to think that she is, at the bottom of the pile of humanity. It's hard for me to say, coming from a background very much like Willow's, but poverty never leaves a person I think. There is some sort of built-in mechanism that gives middle class people an innate confidence and those from the lower classes insecurity and even bitterness. Ooops I think that was very blunt and un-PC of me, I hope you get what I'm saying.
Tara said her bit about choices and where she is coming from and Willow's position of privilege and prejudice... but Tara needed to hear this. Not just for Willow, I think. I think she needs to know that her existence holds sway in the universe, that she was really missed that she *matters*.
Of course we know she's above that, but that's one of the challenges she and Willow have to face, to shake the "underserving" moniker she's attached to herself.
Tara *doesn't* owe Willow justification for the job she holds -- she owes her for leaving her the way she did.
*nods* There's leaving, and then there's leaving. I'm not sure Willow articulated it correctly last time they met, and perhaps not completely so this time, but it was Tara
completely disappearing off the face of the earth without any word that was the cruncher.
I didn't intend for the dance to be an echo of the dance at the prom, but there must have been some subconscious thing working in my mind, because you're so right, there are similarities especially
where there's this undeniable attraction and confusion and then they aren't allowed to touch.
Tara knows that once she lets Willow in, she'll have to face her own feelings towards Willow. It's not Willow's touch, but her own lack of letting anyone touch her.
for the record, I had no problem telling who said who... for whatever reason it just seemed very clear to me.

well you're doing better than me, because the last few lines even I can't tell who said what.
Thanks for the monster fb, my dear. I was very touched that you took the time to write it all, and with such keen observation too.
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Debra
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
This chapter is (not to sound condescending at all I hope) the best writing I've ever seen from you.
I have to warn you, it gets a more droll and less powerful from this point on. I went back to check my notes and there was a 20-month gap between my finishing chapter 10 and this chapter 12. During which I wrote KR, GL and all the challenges / RKT stories thus far. That's a lot of writing, and learning from my friends. But yeah, the actual story part of the story takes center stage in the next few chapters.
You seem to be economizing yet expressing so much here.
db mentioned about brevity, and you're right. This was a chapter and setting I had in mind way back when I first started. I do owe a lot to that scene in the dance club between Natalie Portman and Clive Owen in Closer. It's the same private room, and similar scene of two people trying to decide between pushing the other away or becoming closer together. Like I mentioned to Sara and Cam, in the beginning the dialogue was clear but I wanted the edges of their personalities to become blurred (and moving closer) towards the end. There are hardly any descriptions of their thoughts, I wanted the dialogue to drive what you as the reader felt / heard / saw.
I love the honestly with which they are speaking and the way that they've agreed to speak truth no matter the question without actually agreeing to that.
Thank you again. It was a room for soul-baring, and only the truth is allowed. May be there was a religious association there -- only the truth can prevail in the garden of eden.
It's strange because Willow so clearly crossed a line into a totally different conversation and in most situations it would be so inappropriate but here it's just so beautiful and direct.
Ah yes, she definitely did with the not so subtle sexual reference. But in the surreal atmosphere at that time, it was almost a plea...for Tara to let her in, not in the physical sense but emotionally.
I was reading the next few chapters and I realize it's gonna be impossible to follow this chapter and do it well. Sigh, the story turns into a different type of story now, I hope you like it.
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TujekyI think Willow wants to just pick up where they left off. As she says herself and is so evident, she hasn't really moved on. But her resentment of the room they're in and the implication of their roles within it, is so palpable.
Absolutely. But in her defence, it's the only state of "being with Tara" that she knows. Even though she's buried it all these years, she hasn't forgotten nor can she think of how to behave with Tara on more adult terms. This she needs to learn.
And Tara. All strong and justified, with all this sadness and shame underneath.
It's the same for Tara. Being ashamed and putting herself down is the only state of "being Tara" she knows. She needs to shake off her childhood traumas and become an adult. This she needs to learn.
Thank you for your comments, and for reading.
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Emms 2Oh sweetie, no need to apologize. It's always wonderful to receive fb from you, you write it as descriptively as your own fics.

This chapter really, really grabbed me it's so erotic yet at the same time there is this undercurrent of loneliness and desperation
Yep, the room and its connotations are erotic enough. The sexual current is palpable also, but it would have been wrong if they went anywhere near becoming physical at this point. They need to connect at a spiritual level first.
I love how the dialogue is in such contrast to what they're physically doing, almost as if they are using words (in the beginning) to keep some sort of distance between them, or the other way around
I love love love your description of this, using words as barrier, so intangible yet so real.
Thank you again for sticking with this story for over 2 years.
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Debra 2Thanks for posting again. Wow!
one thing that Willow needs to really concentrate on if she wants to have a relationship (including a friendship) with Tara is not judgeing her. If she judges her, she's going to "lose" her.
I can't agree more. Willow thinks she isn't judgmental, but she is! She recognizes the good-living that Tara is enjoying, but I think at the back of her mind she's comparing it against her own situation and she has to feel that how she earned her money is more "proper". She needs to stop thinking league tables and start being proud of what Tara has achieved -- but there's a fine balance between thinking Tara's done well
despite everything and being happy merely that Tara has done well. And yes, only then will they start to have a meaningful relationship.
It also occurs to me that Willow seems very damaged by what happened with Tara
Again my agreement. It's partiallythe "all.about.me" syndrome I think. Tara left without telling her a) that she was leaving; b) why and c) where she was going. And with Willow having had prime position in Tara's life, it must have been a hard blow. Yes, there was the growing apart and the incident with Faith in the Bronze but I can't help but feeling that Willow's ego got severely stomped on at Tara's sudden departure. And then she started yearning and wanting Tara! That must have been a shock, and yes you're right, contributed to her becoming a pod-person.
Thanks again for your lovely comments.
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sacinemaHi there and thanks for the detailed feedback. I'm not trying to be falsely modest but I think this is one of the better (if not the best) chapter in the story, which means the quality goes downhill from here. Then again you may argue, like Willow, to let
you be the judge of that.
Tara's underbelly attitude started to get on my nevers. She pisses me of with this hole "you don't belong to my world" crap. She made herself to comfortable in the feeling that she is an underdog and only the life she lives now gave her a way out of her situation.
You bring up an interesting point. I've always considered Tara as having the attitude of "I don't belong to your world" but by flipping it around, it's even more true. She has brainwashed herself into believing she has nothing and deserves nothing in life. But look at the evidence -- she lives in an expensive apartment, has social contacts that will make Courtney Love jealous and is anywhere but in the underbelly of society. She needs to stop this self-pity.
Willow is still judgmental yes. But I'm glad you picked out
"I have nothing to give you."
"Let me be the judge of that."
She should be the one judging if Tara is able to give her anything. It's not Tara's decision. She has to decide if she really wants to throw all their mutual feelings in the trash can.
Although in an ideal world, the decision should be made jointly, they can't start doing that if Tara is closed off. Willow knows Tara has lots to give her, and her simple declaration is enough to tell Tara.
It gave the expectance they would end up in a heavy make up session at least. Something they surely would have regretted. They didn't.
and
illow is heavly flirting. Maybe without even noticing. And she is pushing all the right buttons in Tara.
Thank you for that. It's definitely a place where they could have kissed, or gone further and slept with each other, and chalk it up to the room. The aftermath of that would have been devastating; they could not move on, together, if that happened. Willow knows, perhaps unwittingly, which buttons to push in Tara. But a lot of what she said came directly from a primal level. There, in the surreal sexy tense room closing in, she told Tara what she wanted, deep down.
Re: losing their souls. Their lives are not completely their own now -- Willow's at the Bank, Tara's at the club -- so in a way someone has their spirit / soul hostage. Soul in a romantic emotional way, perhaps misplaced is a better word. Then again, they lost theirs to each other long ago.
You have excellent timing. Update is next.
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