Having Doubts?

[raspberryhat]

This thread is meant as a place for support and encouragement. If you're having doubts about your writing, here is a place to share your worry. You may find others have experienced the same feelings and have worked through them. You may find thoughts and suggestions on how to address very specific worries. Equally you may find the shared experiences of other writers who'd had concerns over their own work will help add perspective to your own feelings.

In posting responses to people's concerns, consider that people may be putting sensitive feelings out there. Emoticons not withstanding, getting the appropriate sensitivity into this kind of post may be difficult. Give thought to how you respond.

[raspberryhat]

One thing I worry about a lot is cliché. It's sometimes very difficult to feel like anything I can think of is really original. Although I tend to counter that in my mind by considering that it's all in the telling, I still find myself obsessing on small details and worrying that it might sound a bit like some other story I read when I was seven or something.

[Emms]

I totally know how you feel raspberryhat... I too struggle with the little things and the fear of sounding too cliche or like something I've read before...I think that's very common among writers though, so I wouldn't worry about it too much...

My big problem is, that I have this fear that I'm not fitting the peices of my stories together coherently enough or that I'm not getting across what I meant to get across if I can't find those perfect, descriptive words... I really think it's beginning to turn into OCD or something.......


xoxo
Emms

[raspberryhat]

I know what you mean about wondering if the message is getting across. I find I just get too close after I've re-read it for the hundredth time. That's one of the reasons beta is so valuable to me. I also find mariting time is key. If I come back to something after a week or so I get a lot of fresh insight. I also find (and I can't really explain why) that printing out my working and reading it that way (rather than on screen) really seems to help throw up issues.

If I am not sure something's working, I've found myself sitting back and thinking that if I sort of half close my eyes or squint at it in the right way that it might work. I sort of vaguely hope to be confirmed by my beta on that. Generally I've always found I've been wrong in that and my initial instinct that something isn't quite right has been right. Sometimes I find I can only re-word something so many times and it comes out fresher if I just re-write it.

I guess I think there's nothing wrong in worrying about cliche...in my saner moments but then it's not always easy to keep it in perspective.

[sarejester]

Like music to my ears,
I will have to try out the printing the story out trick,
I unfortunaltly dont have a Beta ( an even more unfortunate im sligtly dislexic), so im on my own in this one, its the same old story, first fan fic, scary as all HELL to check after posting the day before, I dont know about you guys but every time i check the thread or my inbox i get really worried like someone is going to jump from my computer and slap me round the head for even attempting to write,
or couse every one has been really really kind, so its a safe experience,
um.. the only thing i can think of for finding the right word in just the right place, using a thesaurus, ive got one built in on my comp, yea

mkay now that ive had my two cents worth...
sare

[raspberryhat]

I remember how I felt the first time I posted a draft to my newly found first beta. My heart was in my throat for days. I was nervous as anything opening that first returned email.

I've found that developing (if you can) a rapport with a beta really helps. You may never meet them and sometimes, even with emoticons it's hard to know if a comment is just dashed off or is overly critical. It's been rare I've even had to think twice about such things but if I have I've usually found I've been worrying unnecessarily. So I tend to get really chatty and talk around the subject of writing. It helps me.

I think you can learn to edit your own work somewhat but second pair of eyes can really help.

I've found that ninety nine point nine percent of the time, people understand that many writers here are learning. It's all a learning process. I can't help but want to caveat the opening to my work though. I still ask people to "be gentle."

I've worked with people with dyslexia and know that for some very regular writing can really help. It's a potential problem in the work place with email in such heavy usage. I believe there are various mental exercises that can work for some people. From those I know well who've learned to work with dyslexia it just seems regular writing can help to build up accuracy and also confidence. I know that reading emails (at least) from colleagues I know are dyslexic they're often much better written than the sort of thing people dash off without thought. I can dig up some references to exercises if you'd like?

I felt such massive paranoia the first time I wrote. Again though the beta process helped me so much because it's about encouragement and helping you to realise what's inside you. For me, learning to start to write was/is a process of self discovery. I've never written since school and took up trying to write after Seeing Red. I felt a powerful, overwhelming urge to learn to write to change things. I didn't know if I could, but the help and support I got from my beta helped me discover something very surprising and special. I am still very much learning and not as good or raw talented as many. Yet I've found with sweat and effort I can turn out something I like. I just think the beta process is as much if not more about giving people the confidence to try than just pointing out grammatical issues or plot discontinuities. I am convinced plotting and the like is about learning to think in the right way. I guess I am saying I think so much is just practice and it doesn't necessarily come easy to many. I know I find writing hard. I also find it very rewarding though.

[Trom DeGrey]

I fear plot holes. I swear they stalk me! I'll write 50 or 100 pages of something and then read it again later and find this gaping plot hole and think, "What the hell are you doing???" Letting something sit for a while and then going back to read it really helps me spot glaring problems, but a beta is my best line of defense. Another set of eyes is completely invaluable for me when writing something with plot twists and turns.

[raspberryhat]

I always find planning helps with finding the really glaring plot issues. Though I've still had stuff come out in late beta stages. Things that I'd have expected to have spotted much sooner.

About solving plot holes though. Sometimes you just have to re-design the whole thing. Othertimes though I think of it as a creative challenge. I remember seeing a little challenge on this childrens TV art show. You had to draw basically random squiggles with your pen. Then you had to try to make a picture out of it. Amazingly I found you almost always could. It's amazing how your brain can see patterns in chaos. It's like looking at clouds and seeing shapes of people's faces or countries. Anyway, I see looking at some plot issues like that. Sort of stare at it, let your mind wander and see what comes. Also reminds me a bit of viewing random dot stereograms. Suddenly it all becomes clear.

[The_Lord_J]

I guess my main worry has been whether I'm writing too much that isn't relevant to the story; I quite often find myself writing a whole scene that has little to no relevance whatsoever to the rest of the plot...in other words I write like a whole scene just for the sake of a character saying one not-that-important line.

I think it's a minor worry but it does grate on me sometimes.

The other worry is that I'm not as good at the dialogue as I'd like - I sometimes find myself using phrases that I use myself and have to go back and re-edit entire scenes just because the character sounds too much like myself...

Just airing some thoughts.

[Insanity]

and have to go back and re-edit entire scenes just because the character sounds too much like myself...

And that is a bad thing because??????

I don't think it's a bad thing to do. You can first get out the stuff that's in your head (in your words) and later you go over and make some changes, (so they sound like Buffy or Faith or Willow or whoever). That's the usual way IMHO.

Or do you write everything down in one go and it's perfect?

Insanity

[The_Lord_J]

good point, but I think the problem is more that I sometimes don't notice it until I've ready 100 times...and by that time I may have already posted it and will regret it etc etc...but then I guess that's what this board is for, eh?

And no, I never get things right first time around. The first scene in my new fic is almost completely unrecognisable from what it was, it's been edited so much.

I think maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist, and having read some truly awesome fics on here (From The Journal Of Tara Maclay inspired me immensely, yet scares the living daylights out of me because of how well written it is), I'm compelled to make my efforts good enough to...I almost wrote 'compete' there, but that's the wrong word. Good enough to do W&T justice I think. I hate it when I read a fic that has an awesome plot, but the characters just don't act or sound like they should, y'know?

Plus, being an english, straight, male writing about american, gay, females is always going to be something of a challenge. But isn't that what writing fic is all about? A challenge? Research ahoy...

[sarejester]

The_Lord_JI compleatly get what your saying here

From The Journal Of Tara Maclay inspired me immensely, yet scares the living daylights out of me because of how well written it is), I'm compelled to make my efforts good enough

I feel the same way, I usually know if im into a fic by the end of the first chapter, its really scarry knowing people are doing the same thing to my fic,
im in the middle of writing my first fic, and it scares me shitless, I dont know how anyone else writes but i sit down and my computer and I just write and let the idea's come to me, i dont have an overall story board for whats going to happen, granted that when ive finished my draft I tear it to shreds fixing it, but i sort of wing it...is that a bad thing?

Ive found that if i have a great idea on where the fic should go, then i loose a lot of different variety in other ways, i get to carried away trying to make one bit amazing i forget there are more then two charaters,..

Plus, being an english, straight, male writing about american, gay, females is always going to be something of a challenge. But isn't that what writing fic is all about? A challenge? Research ahoy...

Research ahoy indeed,
I am a mite more lucky (gay, female) but i live in New Zealand so one of my main problem is trying to figure out the names of the school systems, ie college, high school, etc and freaking out because i cant remember if americans use the same terms as we do here,
Authentisity is another big one, I hate stuffing round with the over all Buffy time line, but i need the time to fit the story,

Alas,

[raspberryhat]

Point about names of things in other countries is very true. I have the same problems. I was hoping the Research thread of this forum could also act as a place for people to pose those kind of questions. It took me a while to get my head round the US College system. Phrasings like "School" rather than say "University". 'course it all varies in different situations. I find watching US serialised shows obsessively in DVD form helps...

[sarejester]

I find watching US serialised shows obsessively in DVD form helps...

Haha excuses excuses,

I spent the majority of my time watching Xena dvds, Buffy and co only popped up about two years ago for me, i was watching an episode of angel and a woman asked Willow out,
it was late at night and i thought to myself....hah, thats funny it sounds like a woman asked straight willow out on a date....
the next day i asked my flatmate about it and she was like...hello... what universe do you live in, she's as gay as pie,
then i started to look for the dvds, i needed proof, and then got hooked so any anchient greek facts acording to the writers of Xena needed im there, im still learning about american life....

so much wasted time,....tear

[raspberryhat]

I just meant for the use of language was all. Anything else is a different story.

[sarejester]

I just meant for the use of language was all. Anything else is a different story.

raspberryhat- Im sorry dude, I didnt mean anything by it, I compleatly understand what you mean, I just thought it was a classic thing to say,

[raspberryhat]

That's okay then. I was a bit worried.

I do find that thinking so much about trying to use US English and keep the idioms and colloquilisms right that I have to correct my UK English sometimes. I like the challenge of trying to get it right though.

[sarejester]

PHEW!
Im sorry aye, i have a weird sense of humor, and that comment just cracked me up,

I have american friends that have the same problem in New Zealand, trying to work out the school system,
there should just be one universal name for each year at school, its such a simple thing but i get so confused in my fic,
Im so involved that I find myself ignoring the specifics so i can keep writing fluidly, and then have to go back and correct myself later,

its really hard when americans correct me on my time line and ive written the fic all wrong,

[raspberryhat]

I do exactly that. I get my sophomores mixed up with my sororities and the like (so okay I do have an idea but I know I don't understand the full system quite yet). Major's with minor's etc. I've not needed the detail thus far.

We don't make it any easier though. My college used to have traditional term (rather than somester!) names; Michaelmas, Lent and Trinity

[sarejester]

Oh god!
What happened to good old primmers, intermediate and secondary
some body stop the madness!

[Verdant]

Rest assured that we Americans find the Brit system of schooling an arcane maze of terms that seem to have absolutely no relavance to life as we know it.

I'm laughing here because I nailed RaspberryHat as a Brit about 3 paragraphs into the first fic I beta'd. We have had some grand email exchanges discussing the dialectic colloquialisms that permeate the variations of the English language.

Sometimes I feel bad for all you non-Americans out there when it comes to writing W/T fic because they are American and therefore will sound out of character with a different dialect. It's that much more responsibility to pile on a novice writer.

However, I've seen some very inventive ways that authors (Raz included) have managed to set W/T in their native countries and use the dialect difference to the advantage of the story.

Willow as a character would be trying to learn as many of those dialect differences as she could and use them correctly. That's just how she is. Tara would trip on them and feel embarrassed.

I'll try to put together a little primer on American school system naming in the research thread. But here are the basics.


"Elementary school" (also called "grade school" or "primary") is kindergarten (age 4/5), 1st grade (age 6) on up to 6th grade (age 11 or 12) You will often see this abbreviated as K-6 or K-whatever grade the school goes to.

"Middle school" (or "junior high") is 7th and 8th grade (sometimes includes 6th and/or 9th grade)

"High school" is most often 9th grade through 12th grade. Most of us graduate 12th grade at age 17 or 18 and sometimes 19. This is also called "secondary" school - but only by educators and adults -- never by the kids attending.

Within high school:
grade 9 = freshman
grade 10 = sophomore
grade 11 = junior
grade 12 = senior

The whole Scooby gang were sophomores in Season 1.

We call all university level work -- college. The same 4 distinctions (freshman through senior) are used again to designate progress in college.

"School" is a very broad inclusive term that covers all grades, college, trade schools, traffic school, or a one-off instruction class taken through a learning center. It's also used informally as a verb form for "teach." As in -- I'll school you in the ways of American English.

Just want to add that this is an area where having a native speaker as a beta is immesurably helpful. If I were to set my story in England, I'd be requesting help immediately.

Just write it like you say it, then get someone to translate for you. Of course, you may have to translate for them first when they say "what do you mean by 'it's all pants.'"

[sarejester]

Verdant
BLESS YOU, haha
Im from NZ and my soragate beta is from OZ, so we were both prity screwed,
appreciated,

Sare

[raspberryhat]

So cool. I feel guilty now, because I do remember discussing this before. I try to be fastidious about learning from my beta but sometimes I just can't seem to cram it all in my head. I think I probably need two heads at least. I was actually going to suggest a piece for research thread. I was going to offer something on the English system (Scotland, Wales and Ireland (both parts) are all different I believe) but then realised it's changed so much since I was actually in the system that I am not sure I know it any more. College (Uni) I can talk about though. I may have to consult with my partner who's in the educational profession. I freely agree that the naming is arcane in the extreme. If you look at Oxford or Cambridge they've got their own additional terminology. I believe the English Collegeate establishments adopt a more traditional term naming and the newwer 'redbrick' places take a slightly more simplistic two somester model. I'll post something soon. I am rambling and in danger of not having checked lately....

[cosmic dancer]

Thanks Verdant for the info on the US school system. I'm currently rather nervously drafting my first (and at this rate only) fic, and have been getting very bogged down with details like this. I plan to base much of it in an AU S4, but planned to start with Tara prior to her going to Sunnydale. I'm currently trying to research your uni admissions process to ensure that what I write does seem plausable to an American. I do have a beta reader, but like me she lives in England, and so isn't totally confident on details like this either.

BTW if people do want any info on the English school system, which does seem VERY different to the US one, I can definitly help. Please let me know if this will help anyone. It should prob go on the research thread though as raspberryhat said though rather than here.

[raspberryhat]

I thought it would be good to have this continue in the Research thread so I've cross posted a pecis of what we have so far. Perhaps cosmic dancer could share some points on UK schooling models?

[raspberryhat]

Cosmic dancer! I know that feeling. Striving for perfection and trying to understand the differences in cultures and institutions can be difficult, I think. I also think that if you're aware enough to know just how different the systems can be you're probably off to a good start. At least you're not in the don't know what you don't know quadrant.

I found having a US beta hugely valuable. A few little pointers to go look at local maps, understand the geography, the transport system (I was setting a piece on a train) etc really helped me get a feel for things. There's a vast amount on the web. Tonnes. I remember downloading Amtrak train timetables and trying to work exactly where Sunnydale could be on the railroad and how long it would take to get to a certain point. I've found myself going into airline schedules to work out how people could get from where to where and how long it all takes. I've found myself getting into the language differences. Verdant's right, it's very satisfying when you can play up to the differences. It helps bring out the characters a lot.

I'd also say that having lots of beta readers really helps. Vive le difference (okay I don't really speak French as you can see). The diversity of comments and sheer local knowledge can really help. That was a big part of the premise for this forum...If you feel like posting here, everyone will be sensitive and gentle. That's only something you can do when you feel ready of course. You could post looking for a US beta also.

I hope things go well with you.

[cosmic dancer]

Thanks for the encouragement raspberryhat, it's much appriciated.

As you may have seen, a few days ago I posted details about the English school system in the reasearch thread as you suggested. Since then verdant has posted more details on the US system which have helped me. I've also done some research of my own. I now really appreciate how different the systems are, and think I'm starting to grasp how the US system works.

I may try to look at some US maps. I want to start my fic with Tara in her home town, and I have several thoughts as to what I want the town to be like. I'm not sure if it's sensible to use a real life town though, or if it is safer to invent one, so I don't offend anyone!

I've yet to decide how to use language. I know I use some bits of American English when I speak (I think watching many hours of BtVS & Friends has caused this), but US spellings confuse me!

I like your suggestion of having an American beta reader. If anyone reading this feels they could help me, certainly with early chapters which will be based around the US school system and uni entrance, please let me know, either here or by PM. I would really appriciate it.

I may post draft chapters here as I work on them, the more I read this board, the more likely I am to do so, as people do appear to be very supportive. I'm currently doing outlines of chapters and am upto chapter 7. I want to have a feel for where the fic is going before finalising anything.

[umgaynow]

I too have a problem with the relentless pursuit of perfectionism...I will do rewrite after rewrite until I think every letter and word and rhythm is perfect...it still bothers me that in an early chapter of A Woman in Uniform, I referred to Tara having a freckle just to the left of her cleavage and then later on when WIllow was looking to kiss it I said it was on the right...or was it the other way around? This sort of thing can keep me from writing for weeks...in fact I have a chapter written on Speaking to Silence that has been done for a couple of weeks now, but it doesn't quite have the emotional resonance I was going for in my head and so I can't let it go...unfortunately I can't seem to work on it either...ditto for the other...have had a scene half written for several months now but can't finish it cuz I can't seem to get into the proper mood...amd I am the same way when ti comes to my art...at present I have 3 paintings that are unfinished...real life stress has a horrible effect on the inner life of the muse...and being unemployed etc. seems to affect confidence in all areas...but to tell you the truth I had obsessive rewrtiting syndrome even when I had a job Hang in there all...

Sandi/Umgaynow

[raspberryhat]

I know the feeling about the relationship between the inner and the outer lives. Very much to the point right now. Yet I still think of my story world as my safe place and when times get really tough I escape there and write more. In the inbetween times when life's unsettled is the most difficult. It tells me something that when it gets hard I know where I want to escape. Sometimes that can just mean dreaming it up and then writing it down later. Still trying to understand the power of the written word...

[Katharyn]

Perfectionism... my first fic, which was also my first W/T fic, was obsessively written or at least the first half was. I'd estimate without fear of exaggeration that every part was re-written upwards of 30 times in search of the perfect form.

It was never perfect and whats more its full of basic grammar and punctuation errors. What was happening then was that I wasn't letting myself feel pressure to post (because I wasn't posting till I found this board.) Pressure to post can be your friend. Beta readers are definitely your friend, especially if you've developed a relationship with them where you can trust in their vision of your work. Nowadays I limit myself to a four step process (five if you include the paper notes I sometimes make when I have time to kill on public transport or elsewhere) Four drafts of a part at most. Write, redraft, beta edit and final polish. To be honest it's rare I find anything worthwhile adding after the redraft unless it's come from a beta reader (which I miss right now!.) Perfectionism never worked for me and once you let the demands of readers to see your work influence your posting habits, things can get easier.

IMHO of course.

Besides perfectionism can swallow your life. There has to be something more in it than fic despite the liberating power of writing. Yes, I've made that mistake too.

PS I agree, American beta readers can definitely add an authentic feel to your fics if your not from that country. Either that or do your research. With google there's really no excuse.

Katharyn