Views about tara

[Willow Rocks]

Ok move this if u want, but i was just wondering what u could all make of what a girl at my school today said while talking about Buffy.



So we where sitting in the libaery, not studying of course, talking about Buffy when this girl suddenly pipes up that tara irritates her, though a lot of people stood up for tara including me nearly giving the girl a heart attack once i started yelling as loud as could in the libeary without getting chucked out about how she was wrong.



Anyway i got her to see my point of view in a way then she comes up with the fact that and i quote her here "the lesbian was a demon" of course i explained that she wasnt so she then changed it to "the lesbian thought she was a demon bless her". and although this person is in no way homophobic, she loves Willow as well i was just wondering why she said that in that way?

[Tara22]

woah... that is just strange...

I have things like that too! not so much the, deffending Will & Tara's diginity but people are so naive sometimes, the things they say about lesbians and gayness, It's not that they are homophobic either. I just keep correcting them. example : my brother "oh yeah, she was acting so gay" or "how gay is that?", it's stupid comments like that, aggravating much!?!

anyway, I'm sure I have gone way off the topic here...

but, yeah, I don't think it is possible to understand the way some peoples minds work...



oh... and maybe your friend hasn't fully associated Willow with being a lesbian? if she is only a casual watcher Willow may still be very much straight girl in her eyes, it might not have fully registered with her cause, she would know Willow as so much more than just some 'lesbian', she would know the shy Willow and the Oz Willow, but with Tara all she knows is Tara is some 'lesbian' that started dating Willow... not in a prejudiced way or anything but that could be how she sees it... (I dunno, just a theory...)

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

Edited by: Tara22 at: 9/20/02 6:06:03 pm

[KISMIC]

Uhh friends aren't they just great.....I actually have a friend who hates Tara and once when I asked her to seriously answer why, she said, "because she's gay"...Of course she then said "but I'm not homophoboic"! Lol, trust me we put her in her place by the end of that lesson! She still can't stand Tara but 'eh, you can't win 'em all.


I think the main thing people dislike Tara for is that she began on the show as "the lesbian" and so is a 'gay character', Willow however started out as being straight so is seen as a character who just happens to be gay. Trust me there is a difference. Well it's what I've found to be true anyway...Really I think the only way to get a person to really like Tara if they are set on hating her is to have them read some interviews/etc with Amber! That seem to always work!

[Tara22]

Kristy: that works? I'll have to try that on my sister... *grumbles* she is so aggravating! she's like 'how can they be cute? they're two girls...'

thankfully other than that my friends all seem to like Tara, I don't understand how people can not! but I totally aggree with you about the Tara, being seen as the lesbian and Willow as a charecter who happens to be gay....

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

[jeepchick scully]

I love hearing about how ignorant people can be sometimes. lol I agree that people still don't view Willow as being gay which is why they like her more then Tara. Willow has also been around since the beginning and I don't think people want to dislike her because of that.



Tara22, I also hate it when people are always like, "that's so gay." I'm always just like "excuse me?" then they for the most part keep their mouths shut. Lately when people have been saying that and something occurs which is "messed" up I just say, "this is so (insert the person's name)" and actually it's been working.



Like us, people are entitled to their opinions so I guess there isn't much that can be done. Great subject though...



Best Wishes,

Shanna

[Tara22]

Shanna: Oh my gosh! that's brilliant! I'm gonna try that out!

*shakes her head* I can't even begin to tell you what it's like being in a family with lots of teenage siblings where the word gay is constantly misused! *grumbles*



yeah, freedom of speech and all... but sometimes I just gotta wonder how people can be so dense...

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

Edited by: Tara22 at: 9/20/02 8:21:17 pm

[KISMIC]

jeepchick scully, I absolutely love that idea (when people say 'gay' and something occurs which is "messed" up I just say, "this is so (insert the person's name)")


But I have to admit that I myself am guilty of using the term 'gay' like that *feels the shame*! It was passed on to me by my brother as a force of habit . But hey at my school people call other people 'fags' as an insult so...Yes, yes Christan school...aren't they wonderful and accepting :rollseyes: !!

[Tara22]

Kristy: if you think your school is bad then you should meet mine! totally unexcepting of anything! and about the terrible usage of the word gay, I used to catch myself out all the time with it, thinking 'oh my gosh that's gay' but then I would stop and say 'wait a sec, no it's not! what the hell am I talking about', so don't feel to bad about it...

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

Edited by: Tara22 at: 9/20/02 8:37:14 pm

[KISMIC]

Oh no wait, my school is totally accepting...Of *white*, Australian, girly, straight, Christians!! Ahh the love just emmanates from my school : No really they aren't that bad. With using 'gay' I tend to think of it as a totally different word, much like you have gay=happy & gay=homosexual...it's complex!


Hmm so if Tara had come to the show, dated, I dunno, say Xander, then broken up and finally gotten together with Willow...Would people have accepted her more?...Sorry I'm just barely woken up and so it's a given that I have stupid thoughts that are all over the place.

[Tara22]

aw wow, I envy you, you got to sleep so late... at my house it's 'early bird gets the worm' sort of thing.



I do know what you mean about, the seeing the word gay as different things, it's like that with lots of words, it's kind of weird how things work that way...



Yeah, maybe if Tara had been around as part of the scoobies for a couple of seasons as a straight member of the scoobies people would see her differently, aah *sighs* we can never know, it could be that people just need to have someone to look down on, and the obvious choice out of Willow (who they had been watching and loving since ep 1) and Tara was Tara.



I'll never understand that stuff

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

[KISMIC]

My family *used* to wake me up early so that I could "enjoy the day"...Until they realised that not only did I not enjoy the day, but I wrecked theirs too...What can I say, I'm not an early morning person!


Remember though when Willow 'turned' everyone said she couldn't 'cause she had been straight, so if Tara had been straight to begin with people might have done the same for both of them: "But they both dated a guy and..."


Then again Tara had a lot going against her she was gay, stuttered to begin with, was dressed most of the time in terrible clothing and came into it in the fourth season. Some things are just bound to happen, people being unaccepting of Tara must be one of them.

[Tara22]

ah, so your family actually learn from their experiences, me? I'm up at the crack of dawn and loving it.... (or not!)



and they're like, bad mood? you shouldn't have stayed up so late! (grrr... aggravating..)



yeah, you are right about the Willow and Tara both picked on thing... it's just so sad that people have to be that way, y'know taking things on face value, 'ooooooooh she has bad fashion sense and she stutters AND is a lesbian, she must be totally evil'...



stupid stuff like that

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

[Warduke]

Remember guys, there's a place for general chatting, Lurker's Island and the daily thread, let's keep this one about views about Tara.

_________________________


Mozilla : There's a new browser on the block.

[Hair Annoyed]

I'm sorry to break it to you girls, but if someone says they don't like Tara because "she's so gay" then they are homophobic. You don't need to defend them by saying they aren't even if they are your "friends". And despite what you may think of the word, most people nowadays think gay=homosexual so for them to use the word gay when refering to something that is "messed up" they are saying that homosexual=messed up. Now, I know people can say things like this out of habit without thinking of their full implications and may not mean it in a homophobic way, but this is a homophobic statement. People who see Willow as someone who "just happens to be gay" probably secretly think she's just been experimenting with Tara. They probably resent Tara for "making" Willow a lesbian. They may not be openly homophobic may even say "It's OK to be gay." but they do have a homophobic mind set that thinks it really isn't OK. At the very, very least the whole idea of homosexuality makes them uncomfortable and it needs to be pointed out to them that their lack of comfort with the idea is coloring their view of certain individuals. In this case it happens to be Tara but someday it may be you. In fact it might be you already and they just haven't told you so to your face. Yet.

[Tara22]

Hair: no! I aggree with you... I totally aggree! I mean, to me anyone that says stuff like that about Tara and other gay related things is homophobic. I also thought that one of the reasons people resent Tara so much is because they hate that she 'made' Willow gay (which is just wrong!).



I get it.

I just find it hard to grasp, that people can be so closed minded about these things but I definatly get it...

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

Edited by: Tara22 at: 9/20/02 10:11:46 pm

[slayer747]

Hair, I also agree with you (gay=bad equation).



as for that girl, i dunno... some people are just like that... let's just hope that they'll learn to be more accepting somehow.

------------
"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life." - Jessie "Once and Again"

Edited by: slayer747  at: 9/20/02 10:47:37 pm

[KISMIC]

Hair Annoyed, I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I completely agree, it is homophobic when a person says that they hate Tara because she's gay.


As for using the word 'gay' to discribe something bad, well I like to think of myself as open minded, yet I still use the word in that context. Before W/T I was really homophobic (because that's how my family brings you up) so I just think of it as my one remaining bad habit from that. As for other people, it's generally pure homophobia-without-thinking!

[Hair Annoyed]

Well, I have heard people say "I don't like Tara because she is sooo gay." and then backpeddle and say "Well, I didn't mean gay as in lesbian. Afterall, I like Willow. I meant gay as in bad." At that point I usually just want to slap them, but instead I let them continue. Invariably, it turns out that Willow's homosexuality is something that is just barely tolerated mostly because they don't really believe it. At some point they usually say "I wish Oz would come back." And I know it's not because they really love Oz. They just don't want Willow to be gay anymore. Instead of wishing Tara had started off on the show as straight so as to be more palpable to the straight audience, I wish Willow had started out as a lesbian so as not to cause all this confusion. But I'm sure if she had, all the people (except us, of course) who love her now would hate her just because of that one change in her personality. They would associate everything that she is (smart, geeky, goofy, prone to babble, etc.) with being gay and would hate those qualities because they belong to her. I think that is what happens with Tara. They hate the qualities that belong to her not because they hate those qualities but because those traits belong to her. And they hate her because she's gay even if they say they don't.

[Tara22]

I have to aggree with that too... some people can be so stupid! You're so right, if Will had started out as a lesbian on the show they would treat her the same way that they treat Tara. grr! It's just so WRONG!

Tara: Every time I... even when I'm at my worst, you
always make me feel special. How
do you do that?

Willow: Magic

[Anne860]

I've never understood why the term gay became a euphemism for being messed up or lame. When did this start? Besides being homophobic, it's also incorrect and stupid. It drives me nuts. On my list of annoying trends in language, "That's so gay" ranks right up there with hearing "Whassup dog!" exclaimed by middle class white teenagers. Ugh.



On the subject of Tara: Yeah, the problem is that most people think of her as "The Gay Character" rather than as just a character, but the blame for that is mostly Mutant Enemy's. They advertised her as the gay character when they first introduced her, and with the exception of one episode, they never delved very deeply into her personality. (Fortunately the fanfic writers have taken up the slack ME left hanging.) Even in Season Six, the season where they promised they would show Tara as her own person, they didn't. (They promised a lot of things last season though, didn't they? Jerks.)



Fact is, they never really showed Tara as anything except an accessory to the other characters. A confidante to Buffy, a mother to Dawn, and finally, a plot device to turn Willow evil. The other two major characters that died, Joyce and Jenny, got their own storylines before they died, and for sound literary reasons. If you're going to kill a character off, you make the audience care as much about them as possible first. Joss himself has said this. Of course he said it in a way that made it seem like he was the first one to think of it, but I'm not here to discuss his pompousness.



Tara's storyline had none of things that go into making a character's death meaningful. It had neither the originality, respect, or depth that Joyce and Jenny's had. They broke W/T off, put Tara in a box (or closet if you prefer), only taking her out rarely, until they were ready for the reunion and Shocking(!) Death Scene.



[And no, Joss, having a romantic reunion beforehand to contrast with the ugly and gratuitous death afterwards isn't a substitute for taking the time to develop a character, and emotionally jerking your audience around does not qualify as deep and meaningful writing.]



My point? If people perceive Tara as being "not important" or just the "gay character", it's because Mutant Enemy wrote it that way. They can claim that they didn't treat her as a disposable plot device all they like, but actions speak louder than words, and the message is getting through quite clearly to the very people Joss claims he didn't want to encourage. Ugh. Again.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen, and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison.

Edited by: Anne860 at: 9/20/02 11:59:41 pm

[vix84]

I was watching OMWF with some friends, and thery were making fun of Tara's line I know exactly what they see in me; you... How can you not love that line? *grumbles*



Anyway, my friend goes "I still reckon it'd be great if Willow ends up with Xander in the end. But I don't Joss will do that; all the lesbians would go crazy."



I kept my mouth shut about the latter statement, for fear of giving something away, but argued passionately about Xander Vs Tara for ages.



*sigh* It's beyond me how people can think there's more chemistry between X/W than T/W.

[Iamyouknowyours]

I can understand someone not liking Tara. I mean, certain characters are not my cup o' tea either (Riley for example). They are entitled to their own opinion. What upsets me is when they don't like her because she's "gay" or "fat" (the latter which is exta dumb because Amber Benson is not even close to fat and even if she was it's pretty horrible to think that someone would dislike a character based soley on their physical appearance. Shallow much?) As for the homophobic people, of course they are not going to like her because they are threatened at the thought of a happy, healthy lesbain couple (I'm talking season's four and five hear, since season six obviously messed with that a bit). It nevber ceases to amaze me how many people are frightened by love. LOVE! That love can bring about such hate tells you just how messed up our society is still.



As for the "that's so gay" I usually respond with a puzzled "It's so happy why?" although I like the idea of inserting the person's name into the sentence instead. I do not think I have ever used the above phrase. I actually was confused when I first heard it used. Sigh. What can I say? We have to work towards progress one baby step at a time.



To be fair, I was not a Tara fan the first time I saw her. Of course that was the when my rabbit ears only picked up the foriegn language stations and I Tara was all brainsucked and I just didn't quite get it. But a few further episodes made me change my mind. That kiss in Bargaining, the song in OMWF and her shy smile in Hush ... forget about it. I was a gonner. I fell completely in love with the character: sweet, brave, amazingly vunerable, and above all one who followed her heart. She was and is my favorite character. And she is sorely missed. Thank heavens for Pens.

[Chino6069]

Well I don't know if it was just me but I didn't see Tara come on the show as just 'the lesbian' she was a nice shy girl at Willows school who was into Wicca.



I need to re run season 4 DVDs to remind me, but was any of Taras 'romantic' past ever mentioned.



Considering her family I doubt she would have been able to get out and they probably would have had some sort of arranged marriage ready for her if she hadn't left for school LOL



This could have been a 'first love' for both of them for all we know. + =



She wasn't my cup of tea either - for about a week or two then I fell



ohh I think it's a saturday afternoon dvd watching time

[Mrs Vertigo]

One of my friends used to really dislike Tara. When I asked him why he said that she annoys him because “she never wins”. When I nudged him to explain he said that well, she’s “a gay child abuse victim who’d had just one girlfriend. She didn’t do anything big before she got shot. Compared to the rest of the scoobies that’s just so pathetic.” And then I punched him. No, kidding, I just let him be and after the musical he came around and said that Tara was his favorite character because she’s so ‘wise’.



The only goody Joss ever bestowed on Tara was Willow, and even that didn’t last once magic use became an issue. She’s good hearted and accepting and intelligent and a thousand other things you want to say, but when it comes to being the prey or the predator Tara’s a natural victim. She depends on others to save her – from her family, from being brainsucked, etc. It’s hard for people to identify with the one character of the scoobies that isn’t strong. The point is, it’s never her fault. Life’s been rough on her. Actually, no, Joss’s been rough on her. Most people who dislike her just don’t bother to put the thought in. She’s a perpetual victim, hence I hate her ass. Ugggh. It’s an extension of a very basic human defense mechanism that goes align yourself with the strong. Jeeze. Get over yourselvs.



As for the misuse of the word ‘gay’. Humm… My best friend is bisexual. Whenever we reach a dead end in an argument and want to get out of it in a friendly way we just start calling each other ‘faggot’ and ‘dyke’, and so on to much worse expression until we both crack up laughing.



EDITED for the itlics. dammit.

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

Edited by: Mrs Vertigo at: 9/21/02 3:02:23 am

[KISMIC]

Chino6069: ""Well I don't know if it was just me but I didn't see Tara come on the show as just 'the lesbian' she was a nice shy girl at Willows school who was into Wicca.""





Well actually in most countries outside of the US Tara really was only known as 'the lesbian' from the very beginning because we get Buffy *months* after it airs in the US and so rumours about it were EVERYWHERE!...Just sayin'..

[Mrs Vertigo]

Yeah, I did kinda know months in advance. Everybody did... in Asia at least.

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

[WillowSpiritus]

We in Holland also already knew that Willow was going to "become" gay but i didnt really give it much tought. When season 4 started i was happy because of new Buffy goodness. I watched and saw Oz leave and i was sad because Willow was sad and because of the way the whole Veruca thing happened. I never tought Oz would do that to Willow. Then Tara came along and i tought it was cool because she gave Willow more power with her magic's and i always liked the idea of Willow becoming this powerfull wicca. The season just moved along and it didnt really have much impact that Willow got a girlfriend. I liked Willow and i liked the new girl Tara and they became a couple, cool. Not really a big deal for me then. When time went by and season 5 came along i started to like them more and more. It already started with the first ep with "you tought Dracula was sexy" and the line by Joyce about giving up on men alltogether. They were sweet and cute together and to me they were the best couple on the show. Anya and Xander in there good days were cute too but more focused on the sex and Riley was an spoiled boy who just slipped from nice guy in season 4 to jerk in season 5. To stop me from making an even longer story i will end by saying that to me it just happened. New girl in the show who is kinda shy and has got a good heart and really funny from time to time. The whole face punching swimming thing still cracks me up And if the only reason someone can come up with for not liking a person is because they are gay then they are stupid. It is like not liking a person because they are from another country or because they have green hair or something. Hello its about the inside! Oh well some people will never have a clue but i will not stop trying to give them one.



Bye

[WillowPowered]

Here I go, I am going to try and put my thoughts into coherent sentences . . . .



I think Tara was an excellent character, really helped the show develop in a lot of ways and branch out into areas it otherwise wouldn't have. Ambers acting certainly helped the character become so darn loveable and integral (although obviously not enough for Mr Joss - enough said!!)



I think that perhaps the writers (god bless their little cotton socks) have helped develop the impression of Tara being the token lesbian character with their efforts. They didn't really develop her character or put much flesh on her bones so to speak, I mean we know of her less then happy family life (1), her thinking she was going to turn into doris the demon when she hit 20 (2) and oh yeah that she was gay (3).



Maybe to some viewers because number 1 and 2 were bad things, well number 3 must be bad too??



And lets not forget good old social conditioning. In many sections of society gay people have been cast as bad and even evil (to name but a few) - "that is so gay". So this could also influence viewers opinions on Tara even though we know she wasn't a demon and far from bad or evil.



Hope these babblings of my disorganised mind made sense.



Jill

[Mrs Vertigo]

umm... I really don't think the gay=evil thing being applied to Tara... I've heard that people think she's boring, annoying, etc, but never 'bad' or 'evil'. Actually, popular opinion amongst most Tara-haters I've heard ranting is that she could do with a little more evil.



just my two cents worth...

---
“You know, if you weren’t such a bitch-queen from hell you and I would’ve gotten along just fine” – Me making with the friendly at Glory, in a dream where I was Buffy and she was crucifying me.

[KISMIC]

You know though Mrs Verigo that if Tara had become 'more evil', for any amount of time there, we would have heard everyone saying, "but she's so evil...and gay...how can you like her?"


Life's cruel like that!


You know what though if nothing else I'm just glad that I've never met/talked to anyone who has something against Amber herself. 'Cause God help them if they insult her!