Early signs of Willows lesbianism (S1-3)

[Verdant]

We all remember the "think i'm kinda gay" line for Dopplegangland, but I would argue that ME set the platform for Willow being gay even earlier on (whether they were consciously aware of it or not).

I know I'm a newbie, but I followed the FAQ on this one--I read, I searched, etc. I haven't seen this discussion anywhere else and it's full of possiblility.

Last night I was watching "Surprise" (S2E13) with some friends and I was trying to explain the "Willow turns gay" timeline to the newcomers.

It turns out there was "evidence" right there. When Willow asks Oz out (very forward of her) she admits to Buffy she was checking out his hands. Now who but a lesbian would check out a potential lover's hands? A sure indication.

Now if you carry this logic on I'm sure there are tons of signs in season 1.1 through 4.09 that Willow was "different." All leading us to Tara, of course.

What about Xander? She had a crush on him because he was her best friend all through school, because he was in Buffy's words "like one of the girls."

What do you think?

Besides, I'm in the US suffering through a pointless five weeks of reruns just so we can have May sweeps for the final five.

I

[archivist]

First of all. Welcome.

Interesting thoughts. I guess I'll have to look at the DVD's and see if I can spot any more signs for you.

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IM:WillowsBandCamp-TaraMaclay69
Guardian of Vampire Tara
Keeper of Tara's 'Lil Pile 'O Crackers'

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Look, I realize that every slayer comes with a expiration mark stamped on the package.. But I want mine to be a long time from now.. Like a Cheeto.
---

I

[archivist]

My bet is that he put stuff like that in for Willow AND Xander, cuz like Wiccagrrl said he knew he wanted one of them to explore their sexuality in college, but he wasn't sure which one. Like, in The Witch Buffy says he's "just one of the girls" and the whole thing with Larry.

I

[archivist]

I think the reason you don't see much discussion of this elsewhere is that, on other boards, the topic has a tendencey to degenerate into arguments about whether Willow is 'really gay'. I've discussed the issue myself in an article, although by 'discussed' I actually mean 'talked for a long time'.

The Big Gay Explanation Article.

That article is really a way of looking at things which makes more sense, but I don't really believe Willow's sexuality was necessairly planned into her character from the start. It was more like, until Tara, she was pretty much sexless - so her being gay made fitted in with that nicely.

Edited to add I really have to stop typing in 'Buggy' rather than 'Buffy' in my links.

[This message has been edited by Under Her Spell (edited March 20, 2002).]

I

[archivist1]

VERY interesting article, there, Under Her Spell . . . I think your analysis of the sexuality of vampirism in BtvS is dead on. At many times in the show, it has been rather overtly sexualized - examples that leap to mind include the Willow/Spike "this never happened to me before" scene in The Initiative, and Riley with the skanky vampire ho in whatever episode that was . . . can we really imagine the extremely straight Riley going to a male vampire for that? I can't, so clearly gender matters, and the fact that vampWillow lusts after women's necks, although she hangs out with vampXander in a nonbiting (i.e. nonsexual) relationship is very telling.

I also think you made interesting points that both Willow and Oz seek a certain wild sexuality outside of their relationship, and that they are both rather low-key on the sex thing, which could be indicative of her needing to find true sexual satisfaction elsewhere.

However . . . (and please don't pillory me for this, I think Willow is completely gay and I am *not* trying to argue otherwise, if it matters I'm not straight myself) . . . I think it's not really accurate to claim that Willow had no sexual attraction to Oz or Xander. It's quite obvious to me from watching her reactions to them in several episodes that she was, including her reactions to Oz pre- and post-sex, and her several kisses with Xander. I don't think this makes her any less gay. Plenty of people can find a certain people from the sex they're not generally attracted to sexy on occasion, particularly before they're sure where their ultimate feelings lie, and it doesn't change their sexuality. Heck, Xander was clearly attracted to Jonathan during Superstar, simply because a spell made Jonathan seem so cool, but Xander has (generally) seemed straight. I would definitely agree that Willow's desire for Tara is FAR more sexually charged than her ultimately sexless relationship with Xander or her primarily intellectual relationship with Oz. But I think rewriting history to imply that she was never really attracted in a sexual way at all to Xander or Oz is unfair both to the complexity of the show and the true complexity of human sexual experience. (Ducks, covers, and hopes this is not the kind of statement that gets everybody all pissed off, because it isn't meant that way.)

On another note, many of the lesbians I know are computer geeks who used to hang out with the guys in the A/V room, and several of them had "internet" boyfriends at first a la Willow in "I Robot - You Jane" . . . early signs?

--- KR

I

[archivist1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cordy:

But, you know, I'm crazy... and I love to look for lesbians at any place.

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*sigh* don't we all?

Amy

I

[archivist1]

Well as much as we love her gayness, and the thick skulls that constantly need her to keep saying it, some of those ppl might then see it as a 'doth protest too much' situation..hehe. that would be funny, in my weird, warped, sleep-deprived, away-form-the-girlfriend-too-much-because-she-still-goes-to-school way. Okay, sorry for that last bit. Just a bit of frustration...

Zera

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SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

I

[archivist1]

Under Her Spell, I just have to comment on something: You said in your article that

quote:

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Joss Whedon has always had a tendency to ignore everything he's written in the past, and always start each episode without feeling constrained by continuity.

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I just wanted to say, frankly, I've always found Buffy to be one of the more consistent shows I've ever watched. I love the continuity. I love that the show isn't afraid, in it's 5th or 6th season to make references to events that happened in Season 1. And overall I think it tends to respect and cater to the long-time viewer and not the potential new viewer. Is it perfect in this regard? Well, no...but then, no show is. And I have to say I think this season in particular has had some weakness in this department, especially regarding characterizations. But then, I don't think Joss is quite as involved this year as he has been in the past. But in general I think Buffy is fairly remarkable in it's continuity and consistency.

Anyway, I watched through six seasons of Xena. You wanna talk lack of continuity?

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 21, 2002).]

I

[archivist1]

As often, nothing great to add from me...just needed to say that I miss Jenny, she was fabolous (sp?).

I

[archivist1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr.G:
A woman who has been with a man cannot be a lesbian. It's unthinkable.

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Aaaaah, yes, realization is dawning on me now. I too have known the um...company of men. I always knew my lesbo street cred was suspect...

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You know I've been through hell...Joss can't you see, there'll be nothing left of me. You made me believe...

I

[archivist1]

I think Joss had it in mind all along. I've read interviews where people say he has already thought about storylines seasons in advance.

I

[archivist1]

Dr.G knows better, in fact I know best, as always, but sometimes my use of sarcasm is too subtle.

Thanks Kalita, I am feeling wonderfully sane today.

I

[archivepost]

Damned straight Rally, there must be some outdated quasi scientific study somewhere that will prove you right.

I

[archivepost]

yeah I tried that sex with a man thing too, and it hasn't really worked out for me.

I will not even touch on, in this polite circle, where my viriginity was lost too.

As for math I suck at math, but sucking in this thread may not be such a bad thing.

Witches or Bitches all the same in my book.

Hmmm you and Willow, alike, hmmm hmmm, I will leave that opinion to those that know you better.

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No, please. I mean, tell me if I said something wrong otherwise I know I'll say it again. Probably often and in public.

I

[archivepost]

quote:

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Originally posted by wiccie:
Ok, I did try to have sex with a man once...But his pussy tasted like shit.

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Ok, NOT what I needed read first thing in the morning! Nearly laughed coffee out of my nose!

This thread has prompted me to add a new page to my site. It is still a work in progress, and I would love suggestions. Don't post them here unless there VERY on topic, just email me. Anyway the page is called, very originally, "Willow is Gay". And you can see it at, http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/willowisgay.php let me know what you think!

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

I

[archivepost]

Thanks!

Huh, the trouble is I like girls. Oh, wait, not really an issue here.

I am looking for other good pages to link to or randomly pilfer ideas from. I think I should link to this thread at the very least. I might also include Sassette's description in "Answering Darkness" of Willow and Tara's first kiss.

Any other speculative stuff would be great.
Just post it here I guess. Since it would be on topic and everyone else could benefit.

I do hang out at one other board, it is an RPG one and I don't know how many times I have had to "debate" this topic with otherwise intelligent people. I have had to do it with moronic chuckleheads too, but I expect them to be idiots.

Kinsey Scale: Don't make me laugh. I have been a practicing psychologist for 10 years. I have used this ONCE, in some undergrad psych course that I was taking, not teaching. This thing is so out of date... but I won't belabor a dead topic.

I will be working on this page for the rest of today. I just added a some more text and another pic.

Again, Thanks!

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

I

[archivepost]

quote:

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Originally posted by AutumnT:
But apparently something that has become an obvious joke to some still can't be said often enough for it to get through some skulls. Guess she'll have to spell it out YET AGAIN next episode... and the next... and the next..

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There was a post after Hell's Bells on a different board where the poster says "Willow keeps reminding the viewers (or herself?) that she's gay. But maybe she and Xander will find comfort with each other and rekindle that old spark." blah blah blah

I felt like responding with:

I believe that the reason Willow has to keep reiterating that she's gay IS BECAUSE OF POSTS LIKE THIS ONE!!!!

D

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They have Dial-A-Prayer for atheists now. You call up but nobody answers.

I

[archivepost]

quote:

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Originally posted by Web Warlock:
Huh, the trouble is I like girls.

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that's okay...so do willow and tara...

and clearly, faith... the one thing that this thread has given me is confirmation that i wasn't imagining the faith/buffy/willow sexual tension...

braids

ps...crazy, i like girls, too is it any wonder why i identify so much with willow?

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"Is she your sister?"
"She's my everything..."

"Would that mean we have to snuggle?"

"There's nothing we can't face...except for bunnies."

"Oh! Oh, it's not a, a gay thing, you know, I mean, well...she's gay, but, but we don't ... gay. Not that there's anything..."

I

[archivepost]

Shelly,

Thanks. I thought that might be the case, it had that altered look. But I like it becasue Aly is so damn cute and it gets the point across.
I added the "kiss" scene for Buffy comics #33 to bottom of the page, with the alt tag "See, even comic book geeks get it!"

Warlock

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
Shadow Earth Games: http://www.rpghost.com/WebWarlock/
The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
Jesus saves. Allah forgives. Buddha shows the light.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

I

[archiver]

well ive just finished the marathon through all four pages!!! and i have to say definitely gay. but on the idea of hints earlier in the show, there have always been loads about future story lines wether intentional or not but thats what makes the show great it keeps us guessing.

I

[alexis18]

quote:

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Originally posted by AutumnT:

But apparently something that has become an obvious joke to some still can't be said often enough for it to get through some skulls. Guess she'll have to spell it out YET AGAIN next episode... and the next... and the next..

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i think that the reason why Willow has to continually reiterate that she is gay because some people still perceive her as bisexual. also, maybe it would serve the new viewers better as well... you know what i mean.

[WiccansIllusion]

I know this thread died down, but did anyone notice the rainbow on the back of Willows back pack? It's in the episode where Oz gets shot by the fake cop, and Kendra and Buffy save Angel from Dru. She turns to walk down the hall with him and there's a big ol rainbow ( ie: gay symbol )

[Sassette]

"After visiting your really cool site Web Warlock, I suggest that all the lesbo kitties offer you honorary membership of our team...how about coach, or maybe physio?"



Heh ... I always called guys like Web Warlock Lesbros. *G*



And I think this is a great topic, when it follows the subject line - Season 1-3 bits that we look back on now and go, "Heh ... she's so gay."



Totally agree with the Xena thing. I always loved that show, watched it all the time in high school, and funny - I had no idea I was gay either.



-Sass

[tvmoobunny]

i was thinking of the early signs... and come to mention that i didn't notice the bagpack... but i always liked willow's wardrobe (bunny's dogwalking service during earshot is my fave) but aside from doppelgangland i didn't really see anything that would become an indication. i don't think that willow had a crush on buffy. i think that willow idolized buffy for the prophecy she had.



secondly, i don't think that willow had a crush on jenny calendar. if she does, i guess that means i have a crush on alot of my high school teachers, cuz i've developed friendship relations with alot of them over my 3 years there. and finally,



i think one of the clues could of been from "i robot, you jane" because "malcolm" could of been anyone, and willow knew that, but wouldn't admit that to herself.

"well I never lived the dreams of the prom kings and the drama queens
I'd like to think the best of me
is still hiding up my sleeve"

[The Rose24]

This quote from "Phases" is kind of prophetic.



Buffy: What guy could resist your wily Willow charms?

Willow: At last count? All of them. Maybe more.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?

[xita]

The rose except that has nothing to do with being gay. Being gay has nothing to do with whether guys find you attractive or not. You can be gay and be the woman most desired by men. And in fact it is a bit offensive. Willow was insecure but it doesn't mean men don't think she's hot, now.. or then.



Willow's gay cause she loves women, not because men don't want her.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Everything is turning out so dark..."

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"

[The Rose24]

I wasn't saying it had anything to do with Willow being gay. I just thought it was kind of ironic.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?

[tommo]

No but, The Rose, I think you have to try and understand that from a gay woman's perspective, that's kind of insensitive. I mean, I myself am considered desirable by many men, and I often have to turn them down. I'm gay because men don't do it for me, not because I don't do it for them. Clearly I do.

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Hey Grrrrlfriend! Yoo hoo! Over here! It's me...Flaming Joel!

[xita]

The Rose it's just the name of the thread is Early signs of Willow's lesbianism.... so i assumed your post was in response to that.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

"Everything is turning out so dark..."

"No, it's okay. Lost is good. Willow and I always know how to find each other!"

[The Rose24]

Sorry, I guess this is why I do not usually get into these kinds of discussions. I am always afraid I will offend someone. I am not homphobic in any way. I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.
Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Willow: Hi, um Tara. I was wondering maybe you want to go out some time for coffee? food? Kisses and gay love?