Thoughts on Tara's family...

[Italiangirl]

Hi everyone.

Sooooo, I've been watching endless Buffy repeats throughout the month to sustain me during this Buffy drought, and especially during this even longer T/W love drought. *sigh* (I know, I know...join the club...can I be president?)

Anyway, I've been rewatching season 5, and thinking alot about Tara, being that she is my absolute fav. and her status is sadly up in the air. *bigger sigh* I know, I have faith. Big make-up smoochies are coming. Amber's name in the opening sequence is coming.

Sooooo, I'm thinking about Tara's past, and her family. Thanks to the ep. Family we know more about her, and what kind of creeps she had to grow up with. From very early on, I knew Tara had been a victim of familial abuse, I thought Joss & Co. did a wonderful job characterizing her and developing her character, bringing out the self-esteem issues people grapple with who have grown up with abusive families. Personally, I believe that not only was Tara emotionally abused and controlled by her family, but physically as well, by both her father and her brother. The details of this are probably not important, but the more eps I watch (the earlier eps with Tara) the more I want some blanks to be filled in, given the turns the show is taking this season.

Apologies if this is a subject that has been hashed and rehashed too many times. I searched for discussions in the archives, but many of those posts are unavailable for reading.

Moving on, in The Body we learn that Tara's mom died when she was 17. Here is my question...where was Tara's mom when all the abuse was happening? If Tara left home when she was 18, she would only have had to live alone with her dad and Donny for a year (which, don't get me wrong, is long enough to do substantial emotional damage if living with an abuser). So if her mom was on the scene for 17 years, don't you think she would have been a voice of reason to Tara, dispelling the accusations of evilness doled out by her father? And why the hell didn't she just leave him if he was abusing Tara, even if only emotionally? (I know, I know, complex issue, I'm not blaming...) At the very least, if Tara's mom bought into the whole demon pack of lies, if she was a powerful witch as the show has suggested, wouldn't she have taught Tara a spell or something that could prevent or control the demon-ness at age twenty? Or at least taught her that her dad was a prick and there wasn't anything evil in their magic?

Unless...Tara's mom was an abuser too. OR, Tara's mom was an evil witch. The show has never really specified. Remember in Hush, at the end when Tara and Willow were talking, Tara says her mom was *powerful* like Willow, but she doesn't say good. And is it me or looking back, is there a strange inflection when she says it? THEN, in the body, when Tara is talking about her mom dying, she says she thinks weird, bad thoughts. Understandable. But the tone really isn't "I loved her so much I was buried with grief" it was more like "I understand all the bad thoughts you may be having right now."

This has me thinking about her relationship with Willow. Possibly, if Tara's mom was a bad seed, or even if she just didn't protect Tara or if she used her magic for selfish reasons, could this be yet another reason Tara is struggling with the whole situation. I 100% support Tara's decision to TEMPORARILY leave Willow...I think Tara is amazing and beautiful and strong, and I love how confident and self-caring she has become. At the same time, I think there is more to this than what we have seen so far.

Thoughts? Anyone else ponder more about Tara's background, and the role her mom played in her life?

On a final note, I have read some truly outstanding fanfics dealing with Tara's past, my favorite of which is Sometimes Angels Fall by Shay. I am always looking for more. Anyone know of others I can check out? Anyone care to write any? BIG GLARING HINT (grin)

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"You're in my blood like Holy Wine
You taste so bitter, and so sweet
Darling, I could drink a case of you
And still be on my feet;
I would still be on my feet."
-Joni Mitchell

[Kalita]

I think Tara's mom was a loving, caring, supporting figure for her, and Tara was very devastated when she died.

The abuse? You must remember, her mom was also a victim. Her father stated in "Family" that the 'demon curse' had applied to her, as well, and she certainly didn't find the truth about it. So, they both suffered the vagaries of this family; her mother being called a 'demon' and having to be 'treated'; Tara having the specter of it over her head and trying to 'repent' ahead of time by being the 'good little girl' and going along with whatever her father or brother told her.

They suffered, together, in silence. Tara was always shy, it seems (few friends in high school), and it took Willow and the Scoobs to get her to really open up to other people.

And it's done her oh so much good. She's stood up for herself against Will's abuse of magic, and should return to the show with a further sense of herself still.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Kal

[Wiccagrrl]

I don't think Tara's mom was an abuser, or an evil witch. I think she was very likely abused herself. I also think, based on some of the comments in The Body and elsewhere, that she may have been ill for a very long time, possibly hospitalized for many years. I tend to think that Tara's mother wasn't in much of a position to help/protect Tara as much as she might otherwise have been able to. And I have a feeling Tara's father was perfectly willing to take advantage of that fact.

[Wolfie]

It is also possible that Tara's relationship with her mother was tainted by the dogma spread by the males in their household - she may have felt a certain amount of ambivalence towards her, if she was being constantly told that she'd inherited all this "bad" stuff from her; wouldn't she also feel a little resentment towards her? I tend to feel that Tara inherited her kind personality from her mother rather than the males in her family, which, I suppose, means that her mother was kind hearted, loving, etc, but maybe wasn't allowed to show it, either through illness, or being cowed into staying silent - hence no protective spell to pass onto Tara. Actually, the more I think about it, the more complicated it seems. Tara is a strong person, but, it seems to me, her strength comes more through resilience, rather than confidence. It suggests something she may have learned herself, living through abuse, or maybe through watching her mother's stoicism as she died, rather than the strength you get, when someone close is always giving you lots of love and stuff ... It's certainly an interesting idea - thanks for bringing it up.

I suppose that, such is the nature of abusive relationships, that the abused goes through so many conflicting emotions - even if we don't want to believe - it's often impossible not to. I'm wondering whether Tara actually even realised what was going on, until she left home; possibly not even until the Scoobies stood up for her. I think she saw herself as a bad person up until then, which assumes she was buying into something. Gosh, it must have been a terrifying and lonely experience going through her adolecence, especially coming out and stuff like that - I wonder if she ever had anyone to talk to?

She deserves lots of huggles, is all I can say.

[Alliette]

Hmmm. Interesting issues here, kitties.

Am I making this up, or did Tara say in the Body that her mother had been ill for a long time? Perhaps that's why she didn't step in.

But I can also see Tara atributing a certain amount of blame to her mother, and being Tara, I can see her feeling very guilty about it. Like Wolfie says, there's a whole bunch of confusing emotions there.

But I so know that her entire family history has made her the person she is now- so incredibly strong.

"I think about what you grew up with, and then I look at what you are... it makes me proud. It makes me love you more."

Me too, Willow, me too!

Alliette

[This message has been edited by Alliette (edited December 31, 2001).]

[Dazey]

Tara is a fascinating character, easily my absolute fave as well...and yes, pretty much from the moment I saw her, with her obviously-damaged self-esteem and her stuttering, I suspected she was the victim of familial abuse. This was of course confirmed in "Family," and given her brother's threat to "beat [her] down" and her reaction to that, I think we can safely assume that this included physical as well as emotional abuse (though not of a sexual nature, as that could be seen as an attempt to "explain" her lesbianism). I would love to have some of the gaps in her history filled in...about her mother in particular.

I don't think she was an abuser. No evidence for that--though there's no evidence in favor of it, either--just a gut feeling. Nor do I think she was evil, though I agree that Tara's expression and delivery of the line "She had a lot of power" in "Hush" seem to imply that there was a lot more behind that simple statement than we've come to know. But if her mother had been "seduced by the Dark Side," as it were, I think Tara's reaction to Willow's situation would have been much stronger.

I've always thought that Tara's mother may have had some sort of mental illness. Schizophrenia, perhaps? In days of old it was usually interpreted as demonic possession--assume that she first evinced signs of the illness when she was 20, and we can easily see how Tara's father was able to convince Tara that her mother's "demon side" had manifested itself at that age. Perhaps when Tara was very young her mother was well enough that they could have a relationship, and her mother began teaching her magick (we know she's been practicing "since [she] was little"), maybe even hiding it from the men in the family. (There is of course another entire set of questions concerning why Tara's mother married Mr. Maclay in the first place, but I won't deal with it here...though it's interesting to note that such relationships certainly have a place in TV history; both I Dream of Jeannie and Bewitched featured women of great magickal power yoked to men who attempted to defeat and control that power.) Tara probably knew that her mother was ill but was too young to understand the nature of the illness. Eventually her mother's conditioned worsened and she had to be medicated or hospitalized or probably both. Her father was then able to wield total influence over her, and could point to her mother and say, "See, her demon nature got the better of her. That's what will happen to you if you do magick. But if you obey me, I can help you."

Tara would already have had an idea of the positive power of magick, however, which is why she continued to practice, despite the fear this must have engendered. She may have been aided by her grandmother, who, it is implied, was also a witch. As an intelligent girl, she may have come to suspect that her mother's illness was not a result of practicing magick, but even though she might think so on an intellectual level, her father had so messed with her emotions by that point that she could not escape her fear that the demon story might be true. In any event, her ambivalence over magick and what it might do to her is still evident in "Family," when she tells her father "I don't think it's...it won't mean that..." and then "it doesn't feel evil."

A protracted mental illness could explain a lot of things...why Tara's mother wasn't able to protect her from the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father and brother...why the sanctity of Tara's mind is of such importance and why loss of sanity was her greatest fear, greater than death...why her mother's death was both sudden and not.

Anyway, that's my theory.

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"Maybe we should be thinking inside the box. ...Sometimes I...I kinda like the box."

[Hemiola]

I like your theory very much, Dazey. It's well thought-out and would explain a lot of things . It also ties in well with Joss's tendancy to use magic and/or the supernatural as metaphors for other conditions in life.
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"There, there."
Willow to Spike in "Lover's Walk"

[tommo]

Nice theory Dazey, and perhaps that would explain why Tara told Buffy it was sudden, and then not sudden at the same time...

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"Bitter, party of one. Bitter, party of one." she muttered... ~ Four Months After by Capt. Murdock

[Rosenberg]

I've always wondered about the 'becomng a demon at the age of 20' aspect. What exactly was it that automatically caused you to become demon-esque at that age? Does one suddenly grow horns and morph out on that birthday? What was it about Tara's mother that caused Tara to believe that lie? Was it just the fact that Tara's mother was a powerful witch and witchcraft was somehow equated with demonism? Or did Tara's mom perform some kind of rituals that may have been connected with devil worship (which I absolutely don't believe for one second). Whatever it was, Tara bought into it. Her fear of becoming a demon was so powerful that she put the group into danger by casting the invisiblity spell. She was also somewhat deceptive with Willow when she cheated on the Thespia demon locator spell. There had to be some kind of evidence for Tara to believe that she had demon within her. And, if Tara's mother was as powerful a witch as Tara claims, wasn't there something that she could do about the abuse that was apparently going on within that family? Or maybe she believed she couldn't do witchcraft in that situation because it would have compromised her principles because it meant messing with other people's minds and free will, which could be why Tara is so sensitive to what Willow has done to her.

She is a complicated character, which is why i adore her so. It's pretty implicit that she did suffer some type of abuse by the males in her family. Definitely emotional cruelty, if not actual physical mistreatment. In my opinion, I believe there was a physical aspect to the way she was treated. When her father says "we know how to 'control' her problem," and when Donny yells, "I swear by God I'm gonna beat you down." Even cousin Beth lays a guilt trip on her about how she's a selfish bitch and doesn't care about her family even though they've been worrying themselves sick over her. She's leaving her family to take care of things while she's out leading God knows what kind of lifestyle. Manipulate much?

And in The Body when Tara's sitting with Buffy in the hospital she tells her about her mother dying and that she had thoughts and reactions she didn't understand. Thoughts that made her feel like she was losing it or was a horrible person. She also said that her mother didn't die suddenly, so she could have been going through some sort of grieving procedure at the same time her mother was going through her process of dying. Tara may have had thoughts of anger and unforgiveness towards her mother during that process. She may have felt (rightfully so), that once her mother was gone, she would be left alone to fend for herself within her remaining dysfunctional family structure. She mentioned in Intervention that she did some pretty dumb stuff like lying to her family. She also told Willow in Tough Love that she had to deal with her brother's problems after her mom died. That leaves one to wonder what kind of 'problems' he had. Judging by the way Donny treated her in Family, I guess that could imply a possible physical abuse/incest angle.

At any rate, Tara does seem to be a target for victimization. Besides all the unsavory family exploitation, she has the Gentlemen coming after her in Hush, she gets smacked by the monster in Superstar, she gets brain-sucked by Glory and the Willow, the woman she loves, violates her mind by doing forget spells to her. Enough already! That's why I was so proud of her when she stood up to Willow and let her know she wasn't going to take it anymore (even though it broke my heart). She's come a long way in confidence and self-esteem since season 4, to a point where she may now actually be the strongest member of the group. She certainly does appear to be the most responsible.

And no, Italiangirl, you can't be president of te club. That positions has already been taken. (It's nice to know that someone else has actually listened to Joni Mitchells' Blue album though).

Edited at add: Sorry Dazey. I somehow scrolled past you post before I keyed mine. Your suggestion that her mother may have been suffering some type of mental illness is very sound. She could have exhibited aberrant behavior that could have been construed as demonic possession. The symptoms may have manifested at the age of 20. It would also explain why her death was and wasn't sudden. Good theory!
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I'm very seldom naughty

[This message has been edited by Rosenberg (edited January 01, 2002).]

[Cipher]

I've been trying to reconcile her mother dying when Tara was 17 with the "women in her family" having "demon in them" that manifests at age 20. For Tara to believe that all along you would think her mother must have exibited something that the lying men could pass off as "demon". I really like Dazey's suggestion because it fits fairly well (I think schizophrenia can first manifest in the early 20's; I forget what exactly they said about it on ER) and also makes sense that her mother could have taught her magick even after that point (when Tara couldn't have been very old; probably young enough to barely remember her mother before she was "ill" even if her mother had had her quite young).

If her mother had gotten pregnant at a young age (15?)--or perhaps just married young (perhaps arranged?) and got pregnant not long after--it could explain how she ended up married to Mr. Maclay. Do we know if Donnie is older or younger than Tara? (I'm thinking he's younger, but I forget what Family actually indicated.)

[Dazey]

Donny is the elder: "What's the matter? You don't have a hug for your big brother?"

quote:

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Originally posted by Rosenberg:
[Tara's] fear of becoming a demon was so powerful that she put the group into danger by casting the invisiblity spell.

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That's true of course, but she didn't know she was putting the Scoobs in danger. Remember she told Beth the spell was "harmless." In her haste and anxiety I don't think she realized that it would have the effect of rendering all demons invisible...she would have to know that such a spell could hardly be harmless in Sunnydale, and I cannot believe she would ever knowingly put Willow, Dawn, and the rest of the gang in danger for her own sake. And of course, as soon as she realized what her spell had done, she immediately and unhesitatingly broke it.

quote:

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And in The Body when Tara's sitting with Buffy in the hospital she tells her about her mother dying and that she had thoughts and reactions she didn't understand. Thoughts that made her feel like she was losing it or was a horrible person.

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I try not to read too much into this one particular speech. We know that for Joss "The Body" was an intensely autobiographical work. Throughout the ep he uses the various characters to express his own feelings and reactions to his mother's death (while still, of course, remaining true to each character). In this scene Tara functions as a sort of Joss-of-the-Future to Buffy's Joss-of-the-Present. I believe he is using her here to express what he feels may be a common or even universal experience among the bereaved, rather than something that is specific to Tara herself. Does that make sense?

quote:

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Judging by the way Donny treated her in Family, I guess that could imply a possible physical abuse/incest angle.

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As I said above, I reject the notion that Tara was sexually abused because it could be seen as a way to "explain" her sexuality. Which, we all know, does not need to be explained. And there's really no evidence to support it--if Tara is slightly tentative when she hugs Donny, there is nothing in her expression or manner to suggest she has endured that particular horror. Thank God.

You know, if I could ever get myself into the proper mode, I'd love to write some fic exploring Tara's family history. I see it as very Gothic, with Tara's mother as the archetypal Madwoman in the Attic--magick metaphorically representing female creative power and madness the result of the subjugation of that power to the male. Imagine if Bertha Rochester had been a witch...yeesh. Though since this is an American story I see it as more Southern Gothic, I guess...all Faulknerish and whatnot. But with punctuation.
quote:quote:quote:

[Wiccagrrl]

I try not to read too much into this one particular speech. We know that for Joss "The Body" was an intensely autobiographical work. Throughout the ep he uses the various characters to express his own feelings and reactions to his mother's death (while still, of course, remaining true to each character). In this scene Tara functions as a sort of Joss-of-the-Future to Buffy's Joss-of-the-Present. I believe he is using her here to express what he feels may be a common or even universal experience among the bereaved, rather than something that is specific to Tara herself. Does that make sense?

I think that's a great point, Dazey. And I think the universals of the experience, the fact that maybe she could be some support because she had been through what Buffy was going through (even though it is different for everyone)was the point. It wasn't about what Tara had been through so much as the common experience of grieving.

[mariacomet]

A lot of really good points here.

The most vivid look into Tara's family is of course the episode - aptly titled family - It begins with Tara's fairy tale for Willow.

TARA (O.S.)
Okay. Once upon a time there was...
um... a kitty. She was very little, and
she was all alone and nobody wanted he

I think this is a direct parrell for how Tara felt during her youth. Alone and unwanted.

TARA:
-- and took her to the pound. And at
the pound there were lots of other
kitties, and there were puppies, and
some ferrets.

I think this is a metaphor for college - in Tara's mind, I believe, going to college was a moment where she was "rescued."

TARA
Well, I just wanna keep up with you.
And I'm... I'd like to be useful. You
know, to the gang. I just never feel...
useful.

I think here that Tara is expressing her fear that she will go back to feeling alone and unwanted again, if she doesn't prove herself.

DONNY
What's the matter? Don't got a hug
for you big brother?

Donny is her older brother, and from the get go he behaves like a bully. He's already asserting his dominance and tryinfg to get her to behave the way he wants her to behave.

We get a little more info from the shooting script, which is where I am taking all these quotes from. These next few lines REALLY surprised me.

DONNY
What, alla you hang out?
(to Tara, playfully)
That's more people than you
MET in high school.
(to the others)
Tara wasn't too social back when.
I don't think she spoke till she was
eight --

So Tara wasn't just a kind of shy, she was made to feel so repressed till the age of eight that she hardly ever spoke. (POOR TARA!)

MR. MACLAY
You're turning twenty. The same age
your mother was when... do your
friends even know?

This suggests something specific DID happen when Tara's mom turned 20. So Dazey might be right on the money.

MR. MACLAY
Your family loves you, Tara, no
matter what. How do you think
your friends are gonna feel when
they see your true face?

Mr. Maclay does this several times during the episode. He asserts that ONLY her family will ever love or accept her. That only her family can help her. That she is evil and has a 'problem.' That she is putting on a 'charade' before her friends - he implies too that she is putting people in danger JUST by being friends with them. It makes me wonder if she had ANY friends before coming to college since her father obviously did everything in his power to keep her reliant on ONLY the family. It is a severe but subtle form of mental abuse going on here. There's nothing here that indicates to me that any physicial abuse ever took place. Mr. Maclay, if anything is ridgely controlled during all of his scenes. That doesn't mean that the abuse going on here isn't horrifying, it is. There are serious psychological ramifications of constantly being told you are evil and are not worthy of being loved (but we're your wonderful family so we HAVE to love you, We HAVE to deal with you.)

I don't think it can be underestimated how terrified Tara must have been to have cast that 'Blinding' spell. It goes against ALL of the morals she seems to hold about magic. Even casting a spell that is meant to be 'harmless' on others, is out of character for Tara - UNLESS she feels desperate. She may not totally believe she is evil, (though from her reactions in 'Real Me' that question is far from a resolved issue) but she DOES accept that there is something very wrong with her.

MR. MACLAY
The women in our family have...
demon in them. Her mother had
it; it's where the magic comes from.
This isn't something we generally
like to share with strangers. We
came to take her home before...
well, before things like this
started happening.

He states the women in 'OUR family have demon in them.' This suggests that the magic has been being passed down from generation to generation. We know that Tara's grandmother MAY have been a witch because of the doll's eye crystal. But how would Mr Maclay know that? One scenario is that when he married Tara's mother, he was let in on the 'demon curse story' by Tara's grandfather. Which means the abuse has been going on quite a long time.

If Tara's mother had been raised in an environment teaching that magic was normal and could be a good thing, it makes you wonder why she would allow Mr. Maclay's version to stand. UNLESS something happened. We can assume that Mr. Maclay knew Tara's mother since AT LEAST the age of 20, which is when the demon supposedly manifested itself. So either the Maclay's married quite young or Mr. Maclay was TOLD from someone to beware the age of 20.

Unless this is an out and out fabrication by Mr. Maclay but you would think Tara's mother would have debunked that - UNLESS again...something was terribly wrong with Tara's mom.

BUFFY
Was it sudden?

TARA
What?

BUFFY
Your mother...

TARA
No.
(thinks a moment)
And yes.
(beat)
It's always sudden.

The illness is implied to have been ongoing for some time. I find the way that Tara addresses the subject of her mother to be interesting. From early on, Tara's mother is refered to as VERY powerful. Some children who lose parents at a young age seem to amplify them. Make them into super heroes. 'MY dad wasn't just a pilot, he was a HERO in the war' kind of thing. Tara's mother didn't die until Tara was 17, but I wonder if like Dazey proposed something else made Tara LOSE her mother at an early age.

If that's true, it's possible that Tara build up an image of who her mother was and all of her morality about magic is self taught or a reflection of who she thinks her mother was once upon a time.

[Web Warlock]

Actually I can see the abuse as being much more sinister.

Imagine this. Tara's grandfather pulls Tara's dad to the side and tells him about the "demon curse" to keep the women-folk in line. We have suspected this much. What if though the soon to be husbands of these women were in reality hand picked by the girl's father. It seems the only way that this myth could continue.

Maybe Tara's father had a plan. Get Tara home and get her married off to the first guy who would buy into the story. I grew up in the southern parts of the country, there would be no end of candidates.

I think that moves the demon-story from misguided manipulation to down right cruelty.

Warlock

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/~theotherside/
The DnD Community Council: http://www.dndcommunitycouncil.org/nbownw
--
"If that is all the Gods can do then I'm over to the Dark Side so fast!" - Tom Servo, MST3k

[fell]

i like dazey and mariacomet's ideas here. my thinking is along the same lines.

i wonder about the possibility of something like the Eyeghon possession, only less powerful, afflicting Tara's mother when she was around 20 as her growing use of magic got out of control. Willow is 20, and without Tara and Buffy trying to rein her in what would have happened to her? Tara's grandmother could be the one who instilled respect for the uses of magic in Tara, or just seeing what happened to her mother when she was very young could have taught her a healthy respect for the dangers involved.

from a writer's pov, the magical over-indulgence leading to a physical affliction has a lot of appeal because of the way it resonates with Tara's current situation.

[*megan*]

Dazey, that's an awesome theory. It perfectly explains the very few things we know about Tara. It also makes me appreciate the power of Tara's being brain-sucked even more. It could be assumed she had seen her mother exhibit signs of mental illness. Following that line, Tara had been manipulated into fearing that she was going to have the same fate and thinking that it was shameful. Tara's father would literally have "demonised" mental illness. Imagine how doubly terrified Tara must have been about the thought of losing her sanity. It would also make Willow's betrayal all the more hard to deal with.

[Dazey]

quote:

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Originally posted by mariacomet:
I think this is a metaphor for college - in Tara's mind, I believe, going to college was a moment where she was "rescued."

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It sure seems as though we are meant to read Tara's story at the beginning of "Family" as metaphorically her own, but there's one bit that always bothered me: who is the "man [who] came along and swooped her up and took her to the pound"? Anyone got theories?

quote:

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Even casting a spell that is meant to be 'harmless' on others, is out of character for Tara - UNLESS she feels desperate. She may not totally believe she is evil...but she DOES accept that there is something very wrong with her.

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Agree on both points, and here of course we have the lovely little metaphor for homosexuality. Tara has been made to believe "that there is something very wrong with her" because she's a demon (=gay), but in fact she's perfectly normal. It amazed me when this ep first aired that many people could not see the elegance of this metaphor and were "disappointed" by the resolution of the story.

quote:

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[Mr. Maclay] states the women in 'OUR family have demon in them.' This suggests that the magic has been being passed down from generation to generation. ...Which means the abuse has been going on quite a long time.

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I absolutely think Tara is a hereditary witch and that not only her mother but generations of women (and probably men as well) before her practiced magick...but I question the idea (also put forth by Web Warlock) that the demon legend has been going on for that long. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Mr. Maclay himself invented it, or revived it, or borrowed it....I just don't see it as a long continuous line.

And fell writes: "i wonder about the possibility of something like the Eyeghon possession...afflicting Tara's mother...as her growing use of magic got out of control. ...from a writer's pov, the magical over-indulgence leading to a physical affliction has a lot of appeal because of the way it resonates with Tara's current situation."

I see your point, but as I said above I can't help thinking that Tara's reaction to Willow's behavior would have been a great deal stronger if that were the case. She saw the signs early in S5 ("I taught you teeny Tinkerbell light") and let things go a long time before speaking up. Also, I think Tara's mother having a natural rather than supernatural affliction works much better with the resolution of the whole thing in "Family" and Tara finding out that she is just a normal girl and that there never were any demons in her family.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited January 03, 2002).]quote:quote:quote:

[Wolfie]

A thought occurred to me, but I see Dazey has already broached it. Could it be possible that the demon/witch thingy as a metaphore for Tara's sexuality also applies to her mother? I can see the males in her family being pretty threatened by that - they don't come across as the type to be all that tolerant, even be abusive ..? Just a thought.

[Divine Princess Fuchsia]

Found this thread fascinating, especially as I'm working on a fic that deals with it all right now. (Plug! It's Under the ''Tentative Season 4'' thread over on DCP) I know Mr M is rigidly controlled during their scenes - many abusers are, in public. Women have been catgorised as evil for millenia, just because they have a brain and a voice. It's like in fascist police states, where any form of dissent is seen as mental illness. Grr.....

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''We HAVE to kill some cooler people'' - Sunday the cute vampire

''Those of you who fall into my good graces will come to know me as Maggie. Those of you who don't will know me by the name my T.A's use and think I don't know about: The Evil Bitch Monster of Death''. - Maggie Walsh

[Rosenberg]

Thank you for bringing up the demon=gay metaphor Dazey. That's another outstanding point among many outstanding points you've brought up on this subject.

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I'm very seldom naughty

[mariacomet]

quote:

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I absolutely think Tara is a hereditary witch and that not only her mother but generations of women (and probably men as well) before her practiced magick...but I question the idea (also put forth by [b]Web Warlock) that the demon legend has been going on for that long. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Mr. Maclay himself invented it, or revived it, or borrowed it....I just don't see it as a long continuous line.

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Dazey, you may be right on this, but I only see two scenarios here.

1. Tara's mother also believed that she was a demon, hence she married Maclay and allowed her daughter to be told the 'demon story.'

If Tara's mother had any power as a witch at all, and did NOT believe the demon story, then I find it hard to believe she would marry a man like Maclay. The question then is - how long has the demon story been going on? And if it has not been going on very long - why didn't someone on the Tara's mother side of the family intervene?

2. The demon story is new, and Tara's mother was unable to refute it when it started because of her 'condition.' Her 'condtion' might be mental illness, or severe physical abuse. Again, though, on the abuse front - if she was a witch with power, wouldn't it have been a matter of time before she used the magic to make the situation stop?

Assuming that she had a mental illness...Did Maclay marry her before the age of 20 and when the symptoms began, come up with what he deemed the be the most logical conclusion?

As noted above, I don't know that he is the type of heart strong individual that would marry someone with such a conditions. If the symtoms did manifest themselves when she was 20, and she didn't die till Tara was 17 - we can guess that Maclay and Tara's mom had quite a long marriage. The other question then is - does Maclay REALLY have what it takes to STAY and CARE FOR someone with such a condition for that long?

IF Tara's mother did have a condition, then it seems reasonable to think that Maclay might have actually believed the demon story.
I don't think so, since Maclay reacts at the end of Family like a man that has just been exposed as a fraud. He even tries to change tactics, by letting go of the 'Tara is evil' idea and instead reminding her how much her family has always loved her and been there for her.

After Spike makes his declaration, Maclay never rants and raves that he would never lie to his daughter. He doesn't even seem particularly shocked.

I know that the age of 20 is mentioned as the age where the demon takes hold. I wonder if this age isn't a number that Tara's father picked pout out of the proverbial hat. It is an age a couple ages into adulthood, where a young woman might have the urge to try and use her independence to leave her family - unless, as Tara's dad asserts, she is a demon.

I have thought too about the fairy tale and the man that "swoops the kitten up."

Tara's mom died at 17. Best case scenario is that she left for college at 18. However I get the feeling that the first year that Willow met her (Tara would have been approx 19) was Tara's first year at Sunnydale. This does not necessarily mean that Tara is a freshman that year, though she may be. If she DID wait till 19 to head to UC - Sunnydale, what was the catalyst?

Was there a teacher that encouraged her? or an event? I think that's a good question. I think she was motivated to leave, but what was the final push?

Maybe it was the last will and testament from a long forgotten relative. She is getting the money for college from SOMEWHERE, after all.quote:

[xita]

Just quickly, Tara was 18 when she got to college, she turned 19 that november. Similar to my experience I was 18 but 19 by december. Which I have explained before wouldn't be the case under California public school laws, she would have had to flunk a grade in order for that to be true. Kids born before Dec 2 can enter kindergarten at 4, kids born after dec 2 have to wait a year till they are 5. The point is it doesn't matter, it probably doesn't mean Tara flunked, it just means not careful enough writing.

We have to be careful not to read too much into things. The biggest problem I have with speculating about Tara's past is that a lot of what was explained was an afterthought, particularly the she thought she was a demon bit. Remember Joss was going to make her something else (not to say something evil). So then we have to make things fit in where they weren't meant to originally be about the same thing.

Biggest problem with Family, "The Women in our Family have demon in them." What family is he talking about? The Maclay women? His mother? His grandmother? If that's the case how is Tara's mom involved, she wouldn't be of the same blood. Tara's mom bloodline? But then Spike's line wouldn't make sense, about having done it for generations or it wouldn't explain why the maclay men have all this experience handling the problem. Unless Tara's mom was a cousin or something but that's just not something I want to consider.

I have come to believe that the maclay men did defeat her mother. They could have "cured" her of her demon or you know managed to contain it and she felt like if she didn't obey them she would be a demon again. So because Tara got her crystal from grandmother, I am going to assume she is the one who taught her magic (away from the maclay house in some really cool house). Though it bothers me that Grandma wasn't able to knock some sense into mom. Still mother is probably the only person who showed her kindness at home.

[AutumnT]

quote:

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Originally posted by mariacomet:
Maybe it was the last will and testament from a long forgotten relative. She is getting the money for college from SOMEWHERE, after all.

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But there are so many options. It doesn't have to come from someone else. I never got a cent from anyone and put myself through school via financial aid, scholarships, and part time work. All those avenues exist. Plus, UC Sunnydale doesn't strike me as one of the more spendy schools in California.
quote:

[mariacomet]

quote:

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Originally posted by AutumnT:
But there are so many options. It doesn't have to come from someone else. I never got a cent from anyone and put myself through school via financial aid, scholarships, and part time work. All those avenues exist. Plus, UC Sunnydale doesn't strike me as one of the more spendy schools in California.

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A good point. An academic scholarship does make quite a bit of sense. I just have never seen Tara at a part time job, or heard her mention one. Of course there are grants and such that also could explain this. I think I just want to believe that someone in Tara's blood kin isn't a total bone head and might be looking out for her a bit.

quote:

[lahabiel]

The excellent observation of the discrepancy that Tara was a year older than she should have been as an entering freshman is easily explained. She worked part-time for a year at home, doing menail stuff, saving up for her chance to run off to college and not go back.

It would be disgustingly in character for her father and family to discourage her from going to college, rather than do "proper womanly things" like stay home, find a man to serve and honor and obey, and have his kids. It probably wouldn't be easy for a girl in Tara's shoes to find the courage to escape from that situation and be independent.

Imagine Mr. MacLay trying to bring Tara up to be like Cousin Beth, and Tara feigning compliance and obedience, all the while making preparations to run of and be free. Keeping a safe emotional distance from Donny, sometimes narrowly avoiding physical abuse and acting like a doormat so as not to arouse the suspicions of her father and Beth.

Saving up money, and hiding it in a jar buried in the woods where Donny could never find it, until November when she turned eighteen and could open a bank account without her family knowing. Applying for student loans, looking into schools in the UC system, because they're cheap for in-state residents (almost free except for room and board) and sometimes cheap for students from bordering states (Tara's family seems awfully Oregonian to me).

There's some great potential for backstory there. Somebody tell a good comic writer. Hey, maybe Amber could write this one?

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Check out my story
"banish.exe"
on the site www.extraflamey.com for a W/T treat!
--Jeffe

[kissystarcowboy]

This may be way off, but what if Tara's mom was a slayer?

Her mom died when she was 20... which is a fairly normal age for a slayer to die at. Also, during Restless, it's Tara who appears to speak for the First Slayer. That suggests some sort of connection.

The stuff with her dad and brother mucks it up a bit, but what if they just didn't know? Perhaps Tara's mom kept the whole secret identity thing religiously... or else Mr. Maclay and Donny, etc. do know but they want to keep it from Tara, if they don't understand how the lineage works.

And then, Tara's got tons of power. Who knows what sorts of things she could've inherited from her mom? There's not really a precedent for slayers having babies... and there's nothing saying that the Council knows the identities of all the Slayers. Stuff like... The Book of Fours and Buffy herself suggests that they can't identify all the slayers before they are called... and perhaps even after they are called. So, perhaps if Tara's mom was unknown, she could've gotten away from slaying long enough to have a child.

Anyway, it's all full of holes.

[Dr.G]

Tara's mother died when Tara was 17, so she must have at least been very well into her 30's going on 40 considering Donny is the older brother.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited January 05, 2002).]

[kissystarcowboy]

true, forgot about donny. now i'm a dolt.

[fell]

Since we know both Tara's mother and grandmother were magick practitioners, it seems reasonable that the "what happened when she turned 20" thing had something to do with magick. While i like dazey's mental illness theory, even if her mother was in her 30's when Tara was born that would mean she turned 20 in the 1960's- not exactly the dark ages, in most of the country anyway, and if she was young then we're talking as recently as around 1980. To me it just seems a bit of a stretch to pull off the "possessed by demons" story without some kind of magickal evidence.

I like the idea of her mother being an untrained but powerful witch whose abilities started manifesting spontaneously, or perhaps she was practicing in secret and was found out when she gained the ability to turn the lights on and off with her mind or some such thing. Of course that doesn't rule out a physical or mental illness.

We have a couple more pieces of evidence about Tara- Willow's "you've been out longer" comment from TL and the "Spell" song from OMWF:

"I live my life in shadow
Never the sun on my face
It didn't seem so sad, though
I figured that was my place
Now I’m bathed in light
Something just isn't right

I’m under your spell
How else could it be
Anyone would notice me?
It's magic, I can tell
How you set me free
Brought me out so easily

I saw a world enchanted
Spirits and charms in the air
I always took for granted
I was the only one there
But your power shone
Brighter than any I’ve known"

This suggests that Tara was practicing magic surreptitiously prior to meeting Willow, and also possibly that she wasn't out until she got to college.

This raises something i've been turning over and over in my mind recently as i've worked on a fic set in S4- did Willow know Tara was gay before she started getting seriously involved with her, and at what point did Willow start thinking "i think i'm kinda gay"? We know Tara was out when she met Willow, i picture her going to the campus Lesbian Alliance meetings hoping to meet someone, like she did to the Wicca group.

Any thoughts or theories?

[Rosenberg]

I thought Tara mentioned to Willow that she'd been practicing magic all her life. So, I don't think she would have been practicing it covertly. She would have probably joined her mother in casting spells. She also had the doll's eye crystal which was a family heirloom, so I think she was comfortable with magic from the beginning. Willow mentioned in Tough Love that Tara had been out way longer than she had. That could tie in with the comment Tara made about how after her mother died, she started staying out late and lying to her family about things. Maybe she was lying and staying out late because she was developing a relationship with another girl (or maybe just hoping to develop a relationship). I wouldn't be surprised if Tara showed up at the Lesbian Alliance meetings, in spite of her shyness. I remember wondering to myself when Riley was putting up the Lesbian Alliance banner in Something Blue what that was all about. I was hoping Joss was going to go somewhere with that, and I was very happy when he did.

Willow had the "...and I think I'm kinda gay," quote in Dopplegangland in season 3. I'm sure the groundwork was there at least from that point on as far as pursuing it further. There seemed to be that instant acknowledgement of one another in Hush, so I don't think it came as a surprise to Willow.

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I'm very seldom naughty