Discussion - S6E9 - "Smashed"

[Warduke]

After you've seen the episode, this is the place to discuss it.

And please remember kitties, do not post any spoilers for future episodes in this thread, those belong in the spoiler thread.

[Warduke]

My bigger report from last night is gone and I really don't feel like writing it again, since there is no W/T in this episode, there's Willow and Tara but not together, so here is a very quick rundown of my thoughts about Smashed...

The Tara and Dawn scenes were very sweet, Tara is not like a big sister to Dawn, she's like a mom

Willow isn't taking Tara leaving that badly because she is in deep denial, she just says they had a little fight and everything got blown out of proportions.

At the Bronze, when the two guys come over to say hi, Willow isn't interested at all but Amy is, and the woman Amy puts a spell on to come talk to Willow was already gay, she was flirting with another girl/her gf maybe?...but Willow tells Amy no thanks because she's still in love with Tara.

Buffy, Xander and Anya are all concerned about Willow and her use of magic.

Willow and Amy do all kinds of magic at the Bronze but get bored soon enough, Willow wants a bigger fix

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited November 20, 2001).]

[Scout]

"Dawn asks her if they’ll ever get back together, Tara says she wishes she knew, Dawn says that Tara still loves Willow and Tara tells her very much but other things got in the way."

So sad, so sweet. Breakin' my heart!
Thanks for the details, Brian. Now I can go to bed.

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"I have no plans to send Tara anywhere...As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show." - Joss Whedon

[BabyWillow81]

Taras still in the show, this gives me a happy! I think this has been mentioned before, but due to emotional problems in my own life...ive kinda been living under a rock.

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"Were all human beings. Theres nothing that sets Gwyneth Paltrow apart from anybody else. Its just some people buy into it when somomene says'Youre so great youre so wonderful. Let me wip your ass off for you.'[looks to the side]
Sorry about that,Mom." Amber Benson (on how power dosent impress her)

"Thats what a 'Female expression session' looks like"-Alyson Hannigan SMF5

"Oh..A lil' wheelie"-AH SMF5

[canadian kitty]

I agree with Warduke, it was a pretty good ep (well as good as it could be under the circumstances).

the B/S stuff, well a little dark for me. i prefer to tra la la through sunny fields where relationships are always light and fluffy. Hmmm, maybe i'm watching the wrong show for that?

I know there has been a bit of talk about amy not really being that great for willow right now, and this ep certainly showed that. it was so easy for her to convince willow to go out. she knew what buttons to push. but i absolutely loved amy in this ep. i'm still chuckling. elizabeth anne allen did a great job. * "Hey, how you been?" "Rat. You?" "Dead." "Uh huh." *

canadian kitty chuckles as she scampers away to do work.

[lustitana]

Is it just me or did this ep seem short to anyone else? Not short because you get so engrossed that the end comes before you know it, just short. I loved the scene with Dawn and Tara, very sweet, its nice to know Dawn has forgiven her. Anyone notice Dawn's "mature looking" makeup? Becoming wiser perhaps.
Digging the whole B/S thing. I like the darker side of the relationship. I'd rather see her with a monster than Riley the wooden boy.

[Zerattakis]

By the sounds of this ep, as Warduke has stated, Willow is not learning her lesson but merely using the power of denial. good ol' Freud, never underestimate the power of denial. It is good to see that Amber is in the ep and that Dawn has forgiven her, though she probably doesnt fully understand Tara's action. I can't wait to d/l this ep when it's up somewhere. I don't know if i'm on the bandwagon for the whole b/s thing..i'll have to wait and see.

Zera

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SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

[Reyna]

i actually did not like the episode as much...the only scene which i thought was well done was the tara/dawn scenes.

the rest of the show made me feel like they were setting stuff up and pushing through.

The buffy and spike scene was totally contrived -- i like the rough sex bit but that's just cuz i want buffy to get some to get her out of that hole she's in.

I dont know, Spike, well spike is a demon and i like him for buffy he might not be the best thing for her though. he's got to change. I have a theory about the chip and spike though...hmm...

Reyna

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Kimmeh!

[Cici]

Mmh, I can´t believe that Willow use Magic (again).
Although she should think about the whole wiccan stuff and this with Tara, and what happens with her.

What about the Bronze Scene:
Saw Willow Tara?

[april]

quote:

---

"Willow’s in her room, looking around, looking sad, missing Tara, she goes to Amy’s cage and takes her out, telling her that she needs to get her a nice companion rat, that “you could love, play with and grow attached to until one day they leave you for no good reason”…denial."

"Willow answers “I’m not…I’m still”, Amy sees that Willow's still in love with Tara, so she breaks the spell and the girl goes back to her gf."

---

oh man...these parts are SO SAD... willow's in total denial about why tara left her, but she's still so in love with her... *sniff*

between that and dawn asking tara if she's still in love with willow, and if they'll get back together, i'm more convinced than ever that they will. they'll always love each other. things will work out.

edited to add: okay, in my surpreme lameness i just managed to erase brian's report. you can all go ahead and shoot me now. i think i just won the title for Worst Mod Mistake Ever. at least if i'd erased something like, oh, the wildfeed, we could get it back from the cross and stake! sigh. i'm really sorry, kitties!

[This message has been edited by april (edited November 20, 2001).]quote:

[Dr.G]

Don't feel bad April, if Brian here really was a dutiful kitty he would retype it instead of going to bed. Pfff. Having said that if anyone can get it back and repost it I would not mind, for some odd reason I am actually interested in what he had to say. *sigh* I did not want to say that out loud, as it will no doubt go to his head.

[Zerattakis]

Don't beat yourself up so much april! it's not that badder a mistake. Brian won't be too upset 'cause you're one of his wonderful mods...

Zera

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SO: Okay, last question. What advice would you give to someone who gets their brains sucked out?
AB: Um ... eat a lot of apple sauce, preferably fed to you by attractive young lesbians.

[Halcyon]

Amy is absolutely the worst type of friend have under the circumstances, she knows exactly which buttons to push and she goes right ahead with it. Grrrr, and Willow, she's even more of a hottie now but damn it, why can't she wake up and smell that stinky river in Egypt!!

"Good god, that's a lot of shake!" heh, that was a sweet little parental bit for Tara and Dawn and the very blatant bit of manipulation that Dawn did was very familiar.

I don't like the Lame Gunmen. I really don't. Blech.

[april]

thanks for posting a recap of your report, brian! your "special surprise" is on the way!

[WiccanBex]

wow!

i just saw the ep (thank you preair!) and it was... wow...

i love amy! i think she's great... perhaps not very responsible... but great with the entertainment.

also, happy to see tara in this ep - i was totally spoiler free so i didn't know whether she'd be there or not...

buffy and spike... i just don't... *get*... her... at all! i mean, ok... he cute and i *definitely* would... *g* but she just confuses me!

one minute she's pounding his head into a wall, and the next minute she's pounding his... nevermind...

anyways... great ep - can't wait til next week

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"if you throw a stone, something's gonna shatter somewhere. We're all so fragile, we're all so scared."
Convention review site

[shannon720]

the thing i got from the b/s scene at the very end was sorta how an abusive relationship could tear a family or a house apart... i don't know, maybe it's just me. but i loved the whole ep. the scene with tara and dawn was good, cool how tara seemed like a divorced mom with dawn, explainging things to her, and assuring her.

[AmberBensonFan]

I'm still letting this ep sink in so I'm not sure if I liked it, loved it, tolerated it, or what yet. It was disappointing not to see W/T together and I was curious to have seen a shot or two with Tara wondering what's keeping Willow out so late, or something to that effect.

However, did anyone notice that everyone, especially Amber, seemed "different" in this ep? Like everyone's acting styles suddenly changed? I mean, Amber still gave Tara some of her quirkiness, but there was something else - perhaps more assertion, stronger attitude? And SMG seemed to be distracted - as though she wasn't giving her all in this ep.

Please don't take this as any type of critism. I'm just wondering if the musical and possibly TR took a lot out of them and that's what I'm picking up on? Some drainage? Anyone else getting a similar feeling?

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Mega Willow and Tara site:
www.kingproduction.net/buffy.html
Enlightened Member #243, BHS Member #70, Fragile member #308
"Nothing I can do, you took my soul with you." AB OMWF
"Suffer for the Tomato" Alyson (AOL)
"I love playing with Jello. I like to squish it up in my teeth and smile at people." Alyson

[GODisTigger]

I love Tara's interactions with Dawn and Anya's outburst. Finally someone else mentions Willow's excessive magic use.

As to the ending, where's that forget spell when you really need one?

Good GOD, that's alot of shake!

D

[hypergirl]

Well....that was..wicked weird. LoL Bad Willow...Amy bad for Willow...even tho Willow has changed and isn't that little dorky girl from high school anymore....using that as a threat....still irks her.

The whole..breaking the house down thing..anyone else see the symbolism perhaps in the tearing down those walls...and the tearing down of Buffy's walls....when she...uh..gives in to Spike? LoL

Random idea-ish shtuff....

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"There is definitely something sexy about a girl with an attitude and a
pair of leather pants." - ºThe Goddess Elizaº

[The Rose]

After seeing the spoilers for this ep, I was
repulsed by the idea of mixing violence with sex. After seeing the ep, I did not think it could get worse but it did. Sex is supposed to be an expression of love between
two people. Not an expression of who can dominate who or WWF Smackdown. It is about romance. There should be flowers, candy, dinner, soft music and dancing(A good example
would be the love scene between Willow and Tara in "OMWF.")

This ep completely perverted it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This ep also convinces me even more that Spike has not changed. The first thing he
does is go to attack an innocent and then later on in the ep, he beats on Buffy. Spike has never shown any remorse for his past evils. As a matter of fact, he is proud
of them(re: the story he tells Dawn in "Crush.") He is also going back to his
stalker ways and is the same old manipulative bully he has always been.

Tell me again why this B/S thing is a good idea.

I am not liking Amy very much at all. She knows exactly how to get what she wants from
Willow and is leading Willow down an even darker path.

The previews for next week look awful!!!!!!!!
Maybe this is the ep where Willow hits bottom.

Well, there were a few good things about this ep. The Tara and Dawn scenes were priceless. I think tara really wanted to see Willow even though she tries to hide it.

Please come get me when things get better

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Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.

Tara: Willow, I got so lost.
Willow: I found you. I will always find you.

Tara: Nobody messes with my girl!

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited November 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited November 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by The Rose (edited November 20, 2001).]

[drlloyd11]

I liked the ep alot. Willow and Buffy are plunging down fast as lighting..
Last week I felt sure that Spike might be redeemed, since he did not revert to basics with Amnesia, but he really would have killed that girl.
Other notes
1)Buffy expected Tara to be back..
2)Willow's reluctance to using the othe girl, she said "I'm still.." In love?
3)Xander Anya, more perceptive than average.

[candace]

Hi, I am delurking after having been lurking for a while now. Anyway, here are my thoughts on tonight's episode:

I love Anya. Her honesty, her bluntness, her oddly accurate perception of other people's problems. Not bad for a girl everyone thinks is self-absorbed and greedy.

Willow, Willow, Willow. and Amy too. (sigh) The Bronze tricks were fun, but it doesn't give me much comfort in a reunion with Tara anytime soon. Those guys did deserve the cages though. I was down with that.

Buffy and Spike - yeah, way more sex than I wanted to see them having. Actually it was way more sex than I wanted to see anyone having at 7:55pm. lol.
Seriously though, I too was disturbed by the sex and violence mix. What an unhealthy relationship! It makes me think, "Well Willow never smacked Tara around. She does a a couple forget spells and they breakup. Spike and Buffy beat the crap out of each other and they hookup." Is there anything wrong with this picture? Here is an equation they should teach in every math class: Sex + Violence = GROSS.

[This message has been edited by candace (edited November 20, 2001).]

[dusty]

I loved this episode, at least the B/S parts. I thought their sex scene was incredibly hot, although I know some disagree.

quote:

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Sex is supposed to be an expression of love between
two people. Not an expression of who can dominate who or WWF Smackdown. It is about romance. There should be flowers, candy, dinner, soft music and dancing

---

That's not how sex is for everyone. It's not always about love, and even when it is, there's nothing wrong with rough sex and consensual bdsm/power-play type stuff. Anyway, I think for Buffy and Spike, the fighting was foreplay. Both of them are incredibly strong and have the ability to heal quickly, so I think it's very different than if, say, Xander and Anya were beating each other up. Also, I have heard people refer to this relationship as abusive--it's not. A tad dysfunctional, maybe, but it's completely consensual, and they are both beating each other up and verbally harassing each other--no one is in a clear position of power, which I think is a very important element of actual abuse. Spike and Buffy are not flowers/candy/soft music types, sexually, and while what they did might not be some people's idea of good sex, it was clearly pretty good for them. I don't think people should be so quick to judge.

Other thoughts about this ep: I am getting more and more annoyed with Willow, but I'm glad the other Scoobies have an idea that she is already taking this too far. Also, I thought the Tara/Dawn scenes were really sweet. I'm glad Tara's still in Dawn's life. Also, I thought when Spike was going to bite that woman in the alley, he had to do a *lot* of convincing himself that he was still a big-bad-killer-type. I think it actually showed that he's no longer as bad as he thinks he is.

[This message has been edited by dusty (edited November 20, 2001).]quote:

[shazza]

I might just be repeating what someone else has said, but I just saw the clip with B/S having sex. Some people have said that the metaphor of the house collapsing is supposed to relate to Spike finally tearing down Buffys walls and this is all a good thing. When I read the details of the wildfeed I perhaps wondered that too. but now that I have seen the clip (thanks Steve and Ange ), I am thinking more that this symbolises things falling apart, breaking down, not a good thing at all. I guess its mainly the music, the score is not like "finally they are not denying their love, we should all be happy" music. Its way more dark than that.

The other thing I got relates to abuse. I have to agree with those of you who have said that if anyone is the abuser it is Buffy. She has the upper hand during the fighting and she initiates most of the moves, the kiss, the zip, her skirt..Spike even goes so far as to look suprised when she takes it all the way.

[tara*goat]

ok, this episode was rather confusing to me. i really don't understand the whole b/s thing and actually, it kinda grosses me out. as for tara, i think it great that she is trying to be a mother to dawn b/c dawn really needs that right now. it doesn't seem like buffy is really there for her and neither does willow, dawn really needs that stability in her life. i was also glad to see tara in the episode... always nice to see the beauty of amber. as for willow, i might sure if this was just me or not but when willow was watching amy dance with the guys and also when she was standing on the balcony, there was this look that would cross her face... i'm thinking she was missing tara. i was just wondering if any of you say that as well.
love to all kitties
~stubs~

[Tabitha]

Even though I haven't seen this yet, I have to agree about the whole sex/violence thing. Not all sex is about hearts and flowers and romance, consensual or otherwise. The whole "grow up" theme of this season is bringing the Scoobies into the reality of adulthood in so many ways and this is just another. Whether or not it should be shown at such an early time is a whole nother matter that could be debated for a neverending thread and most likely a matter of personal opinion and taste.

Now, back to hiding under my blankie till Joss stops toying with my emotions and gives my girls the reunion smoochies they need....

[Wiccagrrl]

Ok, first the disclaimer: Haven't seen it yet, read the descriptions. Now that that's out of the way:

My issue with B/S is not that it isn't realistic, or that it shouldn't be shown, but in how some fans seem to be taking this, and the question as to whether or not B/S should be seen as a positive development in Buffy's life. I see a lot of people talking about how perfect B/S are. I just think that the fact that Buffy is deeply disturbed and suffering profoundly, and that the relationship is a manifestation of that, is being telegraphed loudly and clearly. And yeah, that is JMHO. But I just feel that the writers have been fairly clear that this is not a particularly good thing.

And I may change my mind when I see this scene, or at some point in the future, but I haven't seen or read anything so far that makes me think that this is a ship I would want to get too emotionally invested in (unlike W/T)It seems to have disaster written all over it.

[Kalita]

Okay, the B/S sex was precisely that: sex. They did not make love to soft music and romantic lighting, no.

I did find a few tiny things interesting. The Buffy-not-human-enough-to-cause-Spike-pain is one of them, and points up a lot to Bufy's current mindset.

She's lost her parental figures (Mom dead, Watcher gone). She's lost the stability she had a year ago (Riley, school). She got ripped out of Heaven. She has annoying real-world issues like a house and a sister to worry about. Her best friend is wrecking her life and in denial. And now, she's not even a real human anymore, by whatever metaphysical laws set that stuff up.

Like she sang 2 weeks ago, she needs to feel. And if letting the dark side in by giving in to Spike lets her feel something, then I guess she's okay with that.

But will she respect herself in the morning?

[kpmuse]

Yikes!

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kris

I am you know.
What?
Yours.

[Web Warlock]

So glad I remained spoiler free!

Loved the Tara - Dawn bits (at least Dawn is getting parenting from someone).
Loved Anya's little outburst at Willow.
And being an old school geek, loved Xander looking in a D&D book. My wife will give me crap about that one for days!

Spike and Buffy. They re bad for each other yes, but maybe it is what they need.

Willow and Amy. this is a train wreck and I can't turn away.

Still liking the Lame Gunmen though, especially Anya's (unknowingly dead-on) appraisal of them. Lame.

Not the best episode, but a needed one.

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
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--
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And women power and I'll be over here."