5) They kiss and then run back to boystown.I could not agree with you more Tyche, you make a very good argument. Very well put.
Uhm I would love to say something more meaningful, but you have said it all so well.[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited August 27, 2001).]
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BBOvenGuy
Strong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 12:25
Willow has a bigger hate-contingent than anyone else in the Buffyverse (except maybe Riley ), and I think it's because she herself has refused to be confined to the "shy wallflower" role she originally had.Now, if you were paying attention you might have noticed that Willow never really was the cliche "shy wallflower" character - witness the "Deliver" gag in "The Harvest" and the way she went after Amy's mom with a baseball bat in "The Witch." But a lot of people saw enough of the "shy wallflower" to pigeon-hole her in that role. Willow really started to break out of her shell when she was with Oz, but at that point she was still in the role of Oz's girlfriend and so people didn't mind as much. It was when she stepped out and became her own person, surviving and flourishing after Oz left instead of crumpling into a ball and welcoming him back with open arms when he returned, that people grew hostile. Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, Willow herself being a Jossian subversion of the cliche. I therefore think the "Willow turns evil" rumors are rooted in the hostility some have toward Willow herself, independent of her relationship with Tara. Having Willow be tempted by darkness and prevail as a force for good rather than go over the edge and turn evil would be Joss's way of refuting two different stereotypes - the gay character won't turn evil just because she's gay, and the uppity female won't turn evil just because she's an uppity female. That would be a very Joss-like thing to do, which means we W/T fans are probably in for a rough ride at the beginning of the season, but we're ultimately going to like where the rough ride ends up. ------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!" "Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon IP: Logged |
WiccanBex
Willowhand
Posts: 438
Registered: Jun 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 12:26
ditto IP: Logged |
Puff
Sassy Eggs
Posts: 738
Registered: Feb 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 12:32
Joss gave us evil Willow, he gave us Vamp Willow, who could forget I think the reason the Willow/Tara relationship is so refreshing, is because it goes against all the stereotypes that tyche put so well and far better than anything else I could say. I'd hate to see Willow become the big bad next season although I do think her magic may have consequences, as with all things in the Buffyverse. I guess I just have to trust Joss. IP: Logged |
Wendy
Blessed Wannabe
Posts: 13
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 12:34
I read somewhere that Joss identifies with Willow most these days, of all the characters. I think the deal with Willow is her relationship to power. She isn't totally a shy wallflower, as Bob pointed out; Tara is much more shy. She isn't really insecure, either. What she has been is powerless, and her newfound strength as a witch has made her more powerful. I don't think the issue is going to be Willow as evil. I think it's going to be about how power can corrupt. How it can change your relationships. I think it's really going to change Willow and Buffy's relationship. No more "You're my big gun" speeches from Buffy to Willow. IP: Logged |
Zahir
Big Pineapple
Posts: 1031
Registered: Nov 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 13:14
I pretty much agree with what everybody else said. And I hope this breakthrough will mean the next gay couple on tv will have an easier time of it.------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam IP: Logged |
Hemiola
Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 197
Registered: Mar 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 13:22
Besides, if you think about it for a moment, even at the height of her powers Willow never seriously threatens anyone. What did she say she would do if people did not follow her instructions in "Weight of the World": "I'll get very...cranky." IP: Logged |
Katharyn
Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 236
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 14:02
I am one of those who bought into the "Willow goes bad" rumours at the start of the summer and I still cannot decide on this - not whether it is true, just whether I WANT to see that (not that I have much choice - I'm obsessed.) On the one hand if W goes bad it will, no doubt, be very, very good television. Like others I don't personally think this would be actual "evil" just the consquences catching up with her and forcing her deal with them - maybe not for the best. But good television - as BTVS has always been - is the primary reason for the show. Dare I say it that though Joss has frequently subverted stereotypes has has also gone along with them sometimes too and the show has generally been the better for it where it has happened. We know that, with specific reference to W&T, he has always treated them far better than the majority of gay couples (when you find couples!) or characters on TV - that gives him a certain amount of latitude in using a stereotypical situation, without it actually being stereotyping. Does that make sense? Basically we know that he is doing it for the "right" reasons.
I don't think I would "enjoy" Willow going bad at all, though I would no doubt love the shows, but I think that something is necessary for W/T this year in terms of drama. Every couple gets their share and sometimes it is quite brutal - and I cannot see Joss "protecting" W&T from that, thinking back to S5, the "Willow in peril" plot was substantially reduced on previous seasons. She has, unfortunately, got it coming to her from that point of view. The pay off from one or both being endangered is, though, likely to be very much worth it in the end and would I hope, make them far stronger than they already are.Katharyn ------------------
She's my always IP: Logged |
Forrister
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 14:20
For me the point about way the W/T relationship is depicted, is that their being gay isn't made the most important issue. They are depicted as a couple who love each other very much. Many depictions of gay relationships have focused almost exclusively on the issue of them being gay and how them being gay affects everyone else. It's almost a send up. Joss doesn't do this, he focuses in on the people and the relationship, the gender issue is almost incidental. On the subject of Willow, I think she's always been a power and control junkie. Initially this seems confined to the area of computers and research but remember how much she enjoyed being in control of the computer class. Vamp Willow takes this to a dark extreme with her S&M tendancies, and we know that Vamp Willow is only a nasty, evil depiction of the existing possiblities in our own Willow. I can see some parallels between her and Faith here. Faith begins to get so caught up in the slaying that she accidently slays a person which pushes her totally over the edge. I can see Willow getting so caught up in her spellcasting that she is going to do something very wrong (without actually meaning to do wrong, of course.) I don't think she's likely to do a flip to evil, she's too moral a person for that. But I think she's going to go through hell for a while because of her actions.
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AK-UK
Blessed Wannabe
Posts: 2
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 17:02
tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.This isn't a bash, but I do think you are overstating your case a little. Sometimes Joss and Co subvert the stereotype (helpless blonde female victim becomes Buffy) and sometimes..... well sometimes they don't (see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche). Still, the writers on BtVS has had a lot more hits than misses, so I'm not too upset with them. IP: Logged |
BBOvenGuy
Strong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 17:19
quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.
I think tyche is more right than wrong. Just because they don't show Willow and Tara having sex in the Buffy/Riley or Spike/Harmony or Spike/Buffybot sense, that doesn't mean they've implied Willow has no sex life. Quite the opposite, in fact - I think they've made it perfectly clear that Willow and Tara are sexually active. "We're lesbian gay-type lovers," "I don't think I can sleep without her," the fight scene, complete with its Captain Kirk boots-and-earrings moment at the beginning - it all paints a pretty clear picture to me. [This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited August 27, 2001).] IP: Logged |
Anyalvr
Willowhand
Posts: 457
Registered: Dec 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 17:43
So if a gay character fits into so-and-so stereotype, does that totally invaldiate whatever the TV show or the movie is?I'm sorry, ut I get pretty fed up with people rejecting stuff offhand just because so-and-so characer fits a stereotype that is offensive to XX community. All stereotypes have a basis in reality, or there wouldn't be those ideas to start off with. If a gay person is shown in XX stereotype but is otherwise an interesting and well-rounded character, that doesn't totally invalidate the whole thing jsut because it "officially" offends somebody. And just because some character breaks a stereotype doesn't mean that it's neccessarily interesting or whatever . . . ------------------
"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?" -(jewel) "Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel) IP: Logged |
AK-UK
Blessed Wannabe
Posts: 2
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 17:48
Oh, I agree that W/T sex is implied......but than, isn't that the case with 90% of the gay characters shown on TV? Hey, we don't need naked romps and a jazz soundtrack (not that that wouldn't be nice......) but.....well, even when they are in bed together they are fully dressed with their pj's button up to the neck....almost. I just feel that the sexual element of the W/T relationship is downplayed, like most gay relationships are on TV (particularly American TV). Now, the Willow character isn't as cliche ridden as most gay characters on TV are, but I don't think she is as cliche free as tchye suggests. IP: Logged |
Forrister
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 18:23
The problem with stereotypes is that they do fit the people they depict at least part of the time. The stereotype simply exaggerates one or two aspects of a person way out of proportion while ignoring all those other things that make that person a well rounded character.I think we are all guilty of treating people like stereotypes sometimes. It's often easier for us to put people into well-labeled boxes than try to deal with how incredibly complex every individual human being can be. This doesn't mean that the labels are always bad. It just means that we should be aware of the fact that they are labels or stereotypes, and treat them as such. IP: Logged |
Beautiful Tara's Girl
Sassy Eggs
Posts: 503
Registered: Oct 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 18:38
quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex.
Hey, you know what? She never really had a hardcore makeout sex scene with Oz either. We saw lots of snuggles under the covers semi-nude, but...huh. I just noticed this. So it didn't start with Tara. I guess Joss doesn't want a "say my name bitch!" Willow...though that would be cool... ~BTG
(still hasn't seen American Pie 2 yet...dammit) ------------------
"It's non-toxic. You're fine." -Amber Benson IP: Logged |
FrenchRose
Cool Monster Fighter
Posts: 206
Registered: Feb 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 18:52
Hmm, actually, I don't think there were that many Will/Oz snuggle scenes in bed either.. I can only think of two right now, the well, 'first time' in GDay, and probably the last in Wild at Heart...Rose
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BBOvenGuy
Strong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 | posted August 27, 2001 19:14
As far as I can remember, those were the only two, Rose. There was also "Amends," but in that they were just lying on top of the bedcovers and were fully clothed.Ever since W/T began there have been people who grumbled about the sexual element being "downplayed." Personally, I prefer it that way and wish the heterosexual relationships could be brought more in line with that level, but that's just my personal taste. I suspect Joss will never show enough explicit W/T sexuality to satisfy everyone. I'm not even sure that he wants to. But hey, those who aren't satisfied can always read or write fanfic. That's what it's there for. IP: Logged |
Salix
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 20:45
I like to see a loving relationship shown without all the overt sexuality. Xander and Anya handle the sex part nicely, thank you. Willow and Tara do the nasty I'm sure. But I don't need to see it. (Not that I'd be against it in the right circumstance...)But that's not what Joss is trying to show.And as far as Willow being the kooky side-kick, whell she was that from episode 1. She has become stronger with Tara, even becoming the "big gun" for Buffy. "You know you're the strongest one here, don't you?" s IP: Logged |
Gadget
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 118
Registered: Mar 2001 | posted August 27, 2001 23:00
The evil willow spoilers I put down to some people lacking imagination..its seems rather a pedestrian idea to me .. this does not mean I don't think she may be subjected to some type of touble due to over-use of dark magick if she continues down that path but to me as yet she hasn't used the power for self interest but rather to help others which sort of defeats the concept of the magick being "dark" but anyway.. I think to a certain degree also the evil thing has something to do with people finding it had to relate to her because she is gay .. for some people it has meant they can't relate because part of the way they related was through her relationships and or lack thereofas for steoeotypes lots of them do bare resemblence to the "real" .. unfortunately I do not think that the above list are stereotypes .. to me a stereotype is someone like the flouncy gayboy Jack on Will & Grace ..and I know lots of gayboys that act that way .. the list above seems to me just to point towards a more hidden (or maybe not so) form of homophobia .. all of them de-humanise the subject they try to portray .. some more than others .. its starts with the fact that gay characters seem often to rarely have sex to them just being evil as such I don't see the list as stereotypes I can guarantee that if BtVS was made primarily for either an English or Australian audience there would be more sex between all characters mainly for the reason that the religious rights ideology does not invade to such a degree in these places like it does in the US .. just an opinion not a dig at the US .. the gay "issue" wouldn't be an issue really .. except for a few dissenting voices .. As for W/T I like the fact that we didn't have to have the long drawn out coming out thing and that they are more or less treated like other characters in the show .. less sex maybe.. but nonetheless the relationship seems at least to me to be treated overall as the same as other relationships .. the gay "issue" seems to some degree as irrelevant .. we can only hope to stop homophobic depictions of gay people by them being treated like everyone else .. even if stereotypes are used .. stereotypes appeal to the lowest comon denominator .. we recognise them and easily relate and as such are needed .. what we don't need or what I don't want is dehumanisation of gays, lesbians or anyone who happens to belong to a "minority".. JMO IP: Logged |
StraightGuyFriend
unregistered | posted August 28, 2001 02:25
quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
So, the point of my ramble is this: Joss is profoundly aware of the stereotypes of gay characters on TV, and he uses W/T to subvert those stereotypes.
This is why (SPOILER-WARNING) the spoilers about Willow going evil in season 6 haven't been entirely convincing.
I was about to disagree (slightly), but you then go on to explain what you mean which is closer to what I agree with. I'm one of those that "likes" the dark-Willow theory for season 6. I don't say "evil" because that would imply she's doing it deliberately (like Faith did) and I don't expect it to go that far. I think what could plausibly happen is that Willow gets more careless with her casual use of dark magick, causing friction between her and Tara (nooo!) and probably endangering others and those close to her (NOOO!). It's not Willow "going evil", it's Willow being corrupted by the easy power (like the dark side of the force), and possibly being tempted and corrupted into crossing the line (as Faith did) by the interference of a true "evil" force (the actual big bad for the season) ...Shannen Doherty! j/k.But what should make you happy, tyche, is that the presumable resolution to the dark-Willow problem is that it is the love she shares with Tara that ultimately saves her from darkness. I don't have any sort of inside knowledge (so this is just speculation--I wouldn't spoiler everyone if I knew something real), but I firmly believe that is the direction Joss would take it if the dark-Willow plotline is followed. Wouldn't that be a great "stereotype"-buster. Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool... and worth all the pain and heartache along the way? Of course, if it happens that way the message (the way I'm reading it) could be too subtle for some people, but that might make it better because it could subliminally affect them without getting filtered by anti-gay bias. That's assuming that such people are still watching, of course; maybe the "stereotype" of the "big bad lesbian" will suck them in, so the resolution can hit them over the head. Anyway, just something to think about. IP: Logged |
smelly cheese
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 95
Registered: Apr 2001 | posted August 29, 2001 01:26
quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
It was also interesting to note that after 'Tough Love' aired, some people were saying on message boards that they suddenly felt a lot more comfortable with Tara, or they liked her now whereas they hadn't before. I wonder if this had anything to do with the fact that she'd been injured and this could be seen as 'punishment' for both her and Willow?
While I don't disagree that some people might have found Tara less threatening after she got brainsucked, but I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before, which also made her a more complex, and thereby likeable person. I mean, her character hasn't really been fleshed out as much as others, so that could be a reason why some people don't like her. When she finally showed some emotions that led themselves to drama and tension on the show, it makes her more human and more people can relate. Anyway, not really on topic, but I just wanted to say that. IP: Logged |
Dazey
Sassy Eggs
Posts: 716
Registered: Mar 2001 | posted August 29, 2001 05:03
AK-UK wrote: "(see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche)."I can't comment on Gunn because I don't really watch Angel, but I'm curious to know how you think Forrest fits this cliché. I thought it was pretty clear that his anger was rooted in jealousy over Riley's relationship with Buffy. Forrister, you summed up my feelings on stereotypes quite nicely. Thanks! StraightGuyFriend wrote: "Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool..." Yes it would! I really hope things turn out that way. smelly cheese wrote: "I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before" Well, I disagree with that...I think we'd been shown that side of Tara many times before, just not to such an obvious and undeniable degree. The naysayers simply could not ignore, distort, or gloss over Tara's heroic action in refusing to give up Dawn as the Key. Those of us who had always paid careful attention to the character knew to expect nothing less. I think tyche's assertion that the brainsuck was viewed by some as punishment for being gay, and that that was responsible for turning the tide of opinion on Tara, has merit. Unfortunately. Let's not forget that it rendered Tara childlike and, therefore, non-sexual. Non-threatening. It will be interesting to see whether opinions remain changed now that Tara is herself again. I tend to disagree with the assertion that Willow is a "deeply moral" person, and I'd like to address that, but unfortunately I just don't have time right now. In the future, perhaps. IP: Logged |
Forrister
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 29, 2001 08:07
I don't think Willow is 'a deeply moral person' either. I think she is loving, self-sacrificing, kind, good hearted, and generous among other things, but moral is really low on that list.Look at how she started out. She was a computer hacker. We never saw her do anything malicious (like viruses or piracy or the like) but she did break into several databases. She may have had the best of motives but they never stopped her from breaking the law. Look how she developed her spellcasting abilities. She had no initial misgivings about casting the spell that earned her the attention of D'Hoffryn, the head vengance demon. She was only sorry when confronted by the consequenses of her actions. She does the same thing when opening the dimensional door allowing Vamp-Willow to enter our world and again when going after Glory for revenge. A moral person would have stopped short of doing these things because they would have known it was wrong and anticipated the possible bad consequences. The problem with Willow is that she has a tendancy to act first and be sorry later. I can see this leading to some more really hairy situations for our favorite redhead.
Diabolus Me Facibant Id Agere!
(The devil made me do it!)
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Salix
Doll's eye crystal
Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 | posted August 29, 2001 08:44
Forrester,I was thinking the exact same things last night. I started typing up something called "The Ethics of Willow". She is definitely an "ends justify the means" kind of person. Witch-fu first and ask questions later. Good for many kinds of story lines this season. Some not so pleasant if we know Joss. Karma is karma after all. S [This message has been edited by Salix (edited August 29, 2001).] IP: Logged |
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited August 27, 2001).]
IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 posted August 27, 2001 12:25
Willow has a bigger hate-contingent than anyone else in the Buffyverse (except maybe Riley ), and I think it's because she herself has refused to be confined to the "shy wallflower" role she originally had.Now, if you were paying attention you might have noticed that Willow never really was the cliche "shy wallflower" character - witness the "Deliver" gag in "The Harvest" and the way she went after Amy's mom with a baseball bat in "The Witch." But a lot of people saw enough of the "shy wallflower" to pigeon-hole her in that role. Willow really started to break out of her shell when she was with Oz, but at that point she was still in the role of Oz's girlfriend and so people didn't mind as much. It was when she stepped out and became her own person, surviving and flourishing after Oz left instead of crumpling into a ball and welcoming him back with open arms when he returned, that people grew hostile.
Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, Willow herself being a Jossian subversion of the cliche. I therefore think the "Willow turns evil" rumors are rooted in the hostility some have toward Willow herself, independent of her relationship with Tara.
Having Willow be tempted by darkness and prevail as a force for good rather than go over the edge and turn evil would be Joss's way of refuting two different stereotypes - the gay character won't turn evil just because she's gay, and the uppity female won't turn evil just because she's an uppity female. That would be a very Joss-like thing to do, which means we W/T fans are probably in for a rough ride at the beginning of the season, but we're ultimately going to like where the rough ride ends up.
------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon
IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 12:25 Willow has a bigger hate-contingent than anyone else in the Buffyverse (except maybe Riley ), and I think it's because she herself has refused to be confined to the "shy wallflower" role she originally had.Now, if you were paying attention you might have noticed that Willow never really was the cliche "shy wallflower" character - witness the "Deliver" gag in "The Harvest" and the way she went after Amy's mom with a baseball bat in "The Witch." But a lot of people saw enough of the "shy wallflower" to pigeon-hole her in that role. Willow really started to break out of her shell when she was with Oz, but at that point she was still in the role of Oz's girlfriend and so people didn't mind as much. It was when she stepped out and became her own person, surviving and flourishing after Oz left instead of crumpling into a ball and welcoming him back with open arms when he returned, that people grew hostile.
Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, Willow herself being a Jossian subversion of the cliche. I therefore think the "Willow turns evil" rumors are rooted in the hostility some have toward Willow herself, independent of her relationship with Tara.
Having Willow be tempted by darkness and prevail as a force for good rather than go over the edge and turn evil would be Joss's way of refuting two different stereotypes - the gay character won't turn evil just because she's gay, and the uppity female won't turn evil just because she's an uppity female. That would be a very Joss-like thing to do, which means we W/T fans are probably in for a rough ride at the beginning of the season, but we're ultimately going to like where the rough ride ends up.
------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
"Nothing excites me more than the possiblity that I might fail." - Joss Whedon
IP: LoggedWiccanBexWillowhand
Posts: 438
Registered: Jun 2001 posted August 27, 2001 12:26
ditto IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 12:26 ditto IP: LoggedPuffSassy Eggs
Posts: 738
Registered: Feb 2001 posted August 27, 2001 12:32
Joss gave us evil Willow, he gave us Vamp Willow, who could forget I think the reason the Willow/Tara relationship is so refreshing, is because it goes against all the stereotypes that tyche put so well and far better than anything else I could say. I'd hate to see Willow become the big bad next season although I do think her magic may have consequences, as with all things in the Buffyverse.
I guess I just have to trust Joss.
IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 12:32 Joss gave us evil Willow, he gave us Vamp Willow, who could forget I think the reason the Willow/Tara relationship is so refreshing, is because it goes against all the stereotypes that tyche put so well and far better than anything else I could say. I'd hate to see Willow become the big bad next season although I do think her magic may have consequences, as with all things in the Buffyverse.
I guess I just have to trust Joss.
IP: LoggedWendyBlessed Wannabe
Posts: 13
Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 12:34
I read somewhere that Joss identifies with Willow most these days, of all the characters. I think the deal with Willow is her relationship to power. She isn't totally a shy wallflower, as Bob pointed out; Tara is much more shy. She isn't really insecure, either. What she has been is powerless, and her newfound strength as a witch has made her more powerful. I don't think the issue is going to be Willow as evil. I think it's going to be about how power can corrupt. How it can change your relationships. I think it's really going to change Willow and Buffy's relationship. No more "You're my big gun" speeches from Buffy to Willow. IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 12:34 I read somewhere that Joss identifies with Willow most these days, of all the characters. I think the deal with Willow is her relationship to power. She isn't totally a shy wallflower, as Bob pointed out; Tara is much more shy. She isn't really insecure, either. What she has been is powerless, and her newfound strength as a witch has made her more powerful. I don't think the issue is going to be Willow as evil. I think it's going to be about how power can corrupt. How it can change your relationships. I think it's really going to change Willow and Buffy's relationship. No more "You're my big gun" speeches from Buffy to Willow. IP: LoggedZahirBig Pineapple
Posts: 1031
Registered: Nov 2000 posted August 27, 2001 13:14
I pretty much agree with what everybody else said. And I hope this breakthrough will mean the next gay couple on tv will have an easier time of it.------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam
IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 13:14 I pretty much agree with what everybody else said. And I hope this breakthrough will mean the next gay couple on tv will have an easier time of it.------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam
IP: LoggedHemiolaCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 197
Registered: Mar 2001 posted August 27, 2001 13:22
Besides, if you think about it for a moment, even at the height of her powers Willow never seriously threatens anyone. What did she say she would do if people did not follow her instructions in "Weight of the World": "I'll get very...cranky." IP: Logged
posted August 27, 2001 13:22 Besides, if you think about it for a moment, even at the height of her powers Willow never seriously threatens anyone. What did she say she would do if people did not follow her instructions in "Weight of the World": "I'll get very...cranky." IP: LoggedKatharynCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 236
Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 14:02
I am one of those who bought into the "Willow goes bad" rumours at the start of the summer and I still cannot decide on this - not whether it is true, just whether I WANT to see that (not that I have much choice - I'm obsessed.) On the one hand if W goes bad it will, no doubt, be very, very good television. Like others I don't personally think this would be actual "evil" just the consquences catching up with her and forcing her deal with them - maybe not for the best. But good television - as BTVS has always been - is the primary reason for the show. Dare I say it that though Joss has frequently subverted stereotypes has has also gone along with them sometimes too and the show has generally been the better for it where it has happened. We know that, with specific reference to W&T, he has always treated them far better than the majority of gay couples (when you find couples!) or characters on TV - that gives him a certain amount of latitude in using a stereotypical situation, without it actually being stereotyping. Does that make sense? Basically we know that he is doing it for the "right" reasons.
I don't think I would "enjoy" Willow going bad at all, though I would no doubt love the shows, but I think that something is necessary for W/T this year in terms of drama. Every couple gets their share and sometimes it is quite brutal - and I cannot see Joss "protecting" W&T from that, thinking back to S5, the "Willow in peril" plot was substantially reduced on previous seasons. She has, unfortunately, got it coming to her from that point of view. The pay off from one or both being endangered is, though, likely to be very much worth it in the end and would I hope, make them far stronger than they already are.Katharyn
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She's my always
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posted August 27, 2001 14:02 I am one of those who bought into the "Willow goes bad" rumours at the start of the summer and I still cannot decide on this - not whether it is true, just whether I WANT to see that (not that I have much choice - I'm obsessed.) On the one hand if W goes bad it will, no doubt, be very, very good television. Like others I don't personally think this would be actual "evil" just the consquences catching up with her and forcing her deal with them - maybe not for the best. But good television - as BTVS has always been - is the primary reason for the show. Dare I say it that though Joss has frequently subverted stereotypes has has also gone along with them sometimes too and the show has generally been the better for it where it has happened. We know that, with specific reference to W&T, he has always treated them far better than the majority of gay couples (when you find couples!) or characters on TV - that gives him a certain amount of latitude in using a stereotypical situation, without it actually being stereotyping. Does that make sense? Basically we know that he is doing it for the "right" reasons.
I don't think I would "enjoy" Willow going bad at all, though I would no doubt love the shows, but I think that something is necessary for W/T this year in terms of drama. Every couple gets their share and sometimes it is quite brutal - and I cannot see Joss "protecting" W&T from that, thinking back to S5, the "Willow in peril" plot was substantially reduced on previous seasons. She has, unfortunately, got it coming to her from that point of view. The pay off from one or both being endangered is, though, likely to be very much worth it in the end and would I hope, make them far stronger than they already are.Katharyn
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She's my always
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Posts: 90
Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 14:20
For me the point about way the W/T relationship is depicted, is that their being gay isn't made the most important issue. They are depicted as a couple who love each other very much. Many depictions of gay relationships have focused almost exclusively on the issue of them being gay and how them being gay affects everyone else. It's almost a send up. Joss doesn't do this, he focuses in on the people and the relationship, the gender issue is almost incidental.
On the subject of Willow, I think she's always been a power and control junkie. Initially this seems confined to the area of computers and research but remember how much she enjoyed being in control of the computer class. Vamp Willow takes this to a dark extreme with her S&M tendancies, and we know that Vamp Willow is only a nasty, evil depiction of the existing possiblities in our own Willow.
I can see some parallels between her and Faith here. Faith begins to get so caught up in the slaying that she accidently slays a person which pushes her totally over the edge. I can see Willow getting so caught up in her spellcasting that she is going to do something very wrong (without actually meaning to do wrong, of course.) I don't think she's likely to do a flip to evil, she's too moral a person for that. But I think she's going to go through hell for a while because of her actions.
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posted August 27, 2001 14:20 For me the point about way the W/T relationship is depicted, is that their being gay isn't made the most important issue. They are depicted as a couple who love each other very much. Many depictions of gay relationships have focused almost exclusively on the issue of them being gay and how them being gay affects everyone else. It's almost a send up. Joss doesn't do this, he focuses in on the people and the relationship, the gender issue is almost incidental.
On the subject of Willow, I think she's always been a power and control junkie. Initially this seems confined to the area of computers and research but remember how much she enjoyed being in control of the computer class. Vamp Willow takes this to a dark extreme with her S&M tendancies, and we know that Vamp Willow is only a nasty, evil depiction of the existing possiblities in our own Willow.
I can see some parallels between her and Faith here. Faith begins to get so caught up in the slaying that she accidently slays a person which pushes her totally over the edge. I can see Willow getting so caught up in her spellcasting that she is going to do something very wrong (without actually meaning to do wrong, of course.) I don't think she's likely to do a flip to evil, she's too moral a person for that. But I think she's going to go through hell for a while because of her actions.
IP: LoggedAK-UKBlessed Wannabe
Posts: 2
Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 17:02
tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.This isn't a bash, but I do think you are overstating your case a little. Sometimes Joss and Co subvert the stereotype (helpless blonde female victim becomes Buffy) and sometimes..... well sometimes they don't (see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche).
Still, the writers on BtVS has had a lot more hits than misses, so I'm not too upset with them.
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posted August 27, 2001 17:02 tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.This isn't a bash, but I do think you are overstating your case a little. Sometimes Joss and Co subvert the stereotype (helpless blonde female victim becomes Buffy) and sometimes..... well sometimes they don't (see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche).
Still, the writers on BtVS has had a lot more hits than misses, so I'm not too upset with them.
IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 posted August 27, 2001 17:19
quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.
I think tyche is more right than wrong. Just because they don't show Willow and Tara having sex in the Buffy/Riley or Spike/Harmony or Spike/Buffybot sense, that doesn't mean they've implied Willow has no sex life. Quite the opposite, in fact - I think they've made it perfectly clear that Willow and Tara are sexually active. "We're lesbian gay-type lovers," "I don't think I can sleep without her," the fight scene, complete with its Captain Kirk boots-and-earrings moment at the beginning - it all paints a pretty clear picture to me.
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited August 27, 2001).]
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posted August 27, 2001 17:19 quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
tyche......to what extent has Joss subverted the cliche's that you list? Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex. Any sexual dimension in her relationship is safely filtered through wiccan spells, or is restricted to hugs and hand holding. The only time they seem to be allowed to kiss is when one (or both) characters are in tears.
I think tyche is more right than wrong. Just because they don't show Willow and Tara having sex in the Buffy/Riley or Spike/Harmony or Spike/Buffybot sense, that doesn't mean they've implied Willow has no sex life. Quite the opposite, in fact - I think they've made it perfectly clear that Willow and Tara are sexually active. "We're lesbian gay-type lovers," "I don't think I can sleep without her," the fight scene, complete with its Captain Kirk boots-and-earrings moment at the beginning - it all paints a pretty clear picture to me.
[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited August 27, 2001).]
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Posts: 457
Registered: Dec 2000 posted August 27, 2001 17:43
So if a gay character fits into so-and-so stereotype, does that totally invaldiate whatever the TV show or the movie is?I'm sorry, ut I get pretty fed up with people rejecting stuff offhand just because so-and-so characer fits a stereotype that is offensive to XX community. All stereotypes have a basis in reality, or there wouldn't be those ideas to start off with. If a gay person is shown in XX stereotype but is otherwise an interesting and well-rounded character, that doesn't totally invalidate the whole thing jsut because it "officially" offends somebody.
And just because some character breaks a stereotype doesn't mean that it's neccessarily interesting or whatever . . .
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"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
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posted August 27, 2001 17:43 So if a gay character fits into so-and-so stereotype, does that totally invaldiate whatever the TV show or the movie is?I'm sorry, ut I get pretty fed up with people rejecting stuff offhand just because so-and-so characer fits a stereotype that is offensive to XX community. All stereotypes have a basis in reality, or there wouldn't be those ideas to start off with. If a gay person is shown in XX stereotype but is otherwise an interesting and well-rounded character, that doesn't totally invalidate the whole thing jsut because it "officially" offends somebody.
And just because some character breaks a stereotype doesn't mean that it's neccessarily interesting or whatever . . .
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"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"
-(jewel)
"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)
IP: LoggedAK-UKBlessed Wannabe
Posts: 2
Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 17:48
Oh, I agree that W/T sex is implied......but than, isn't that the case with 90% of the gay characters shown on TV? Hey, we don't need naked romps and a jazz soundtrack (not that that wouldn't be nice......) but.....well, even when they are in bed together they are fully dressed with their pj's button up to the neck....almost.
I just feel that the sexual element of the W/T relationship is downplayed, like most gay relationships are on TV (particularly American TV).
Now, the Willow character isn't as cliche ridden as most gay characters on TV are, but I don't think she is as cliche free as tchye suggests.
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posted August 27, 2001 17:48 Oh, I agree that W/T sex is implied......but than, isn't that the case with 90% of the gay characters shown on TV? Hey, we don't need naked romps and a jazz soundtrack (not that that wouldn't be nice......) but.....well, even when they are in bed together they are fully dressed with their pj's button up to the neck....almost.
I just feel that the sexual element of the W/T relationship is downplayed, like most gay relationships are on TV (particularly American TV).
Now, the Willow character isn't as cliche ridden as most gay characters on TV are, but I don't think she is as cliche free as tchye suggests.
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Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 18:23
The problem with stereotypes is that they do fit the people they depict at least part of the time. The stereotype simply exaggerates one or two aspects of a person way out of proportion while ignoring all those other things that make that person a well rounded character.I think we are all guilty of treating people like stereotypes sometimes. It's often easier for us to put people into well-labeled boxes than try to deal with how incredibly complex every individual human being can be.
This doesn't mean that the labels are always bad. It just means that we should be aware of the fact that they are labels or stereotypes, and treat them as such.
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posted August 27, 2001 18:23 The problem with stereotypes is that they do fit the people they depict at least part of the time. The stereotype simply exaggerates one or two aspects of a person way out of proportion while ignoring all those other things that make that person a well rounded character.I think we are all guilty of treating people like stereotypes sometimes. It's often easier for us to put people into well-labeled boxes than try to deal with how incredibly complex every individual human being can be.
This doesn't mean that the labels are always bad. It just means that we should be aware of the fact that they are labels or stereotypes, and treat them as such.
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Posts: 503
Registered: Oct 2000 posted August 27, 2001 18:38
quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex.
Hey, you know what? She never really had a hardcore makeout sex scene with Oz either. We saw lots of snuggles under the covers semi-nude, but...huh. I just noticed this. So it didn't start with Tara. I guess Joss doesn't want a "say my name bitch!" Willow...though that would be cool...
~BTG
(still hasn't seen American Pie 2 yet...dammit)
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"It's non-toxic. You're fine." -Amber Benson
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posted August 27, 2001 18:38 quote:
Originally posted by AK-UK:
Willow is the entertaining, slightly "kooky" best friend of the hero, who gives out lots of supportive hugs and.....well, never has sex.
Hey, you know what? She never really had a hardcore makeout sex scene with Oz either. We saw lots of snuggles under the covers semi-nude, but...huh. I just noticed this. So it didn't start with Tara. I guess Joss doesn't want a "say my name bitch!" Willow...though that would be cool...
~BTG
(still hasn't seen American Pie 2 yet...dammit)
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"It's non-toxic. You're fine." -Amber Benson
quote:IP: LoggedFrenchRoseCool Monster Fighter
Posts: 206
Registered: Feb 2001 posted August 27, 2001 18:52
Hmm, actually, I don't think there were that many Will/Oz snuggle scenes in bed either.. I can only think of two right now, the well, 'first time' in GDay, and probably the last in Wild at Heart...Rose
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posted August 27, 2001 18:52 Hmm, actually, I don't think there were that many Will/Oz snuggle scenes in bed either.. I can only think of two right now, the well, 'first time' in GDay, and probably the last in Wild at Heart...Rose
IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyStrong like an Amazon
Posts: 2270
Registered: Sep 2000 posted August 27, 2001 19:14
As far as I can remember, those were the only two, Rose. There was also "Amends," but in that they were just lying on top of the bedcovers and were fully clothed.Ever since W/T began there have been people who grumbled about the sexual element being "downplayed." Personally, I prefer it that way and wish the heterosexual relationships could be brought more in line with that level, but that's just my personal taste. I suspect Joss will never show enough explicit W/T sexuality to satisfy everyone. I'm not even sure that he wants to. But hey, those who aren't satisfied can always read or write fanfic. That's what it's there for.
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posted August 27, 2001 19:14 As far as I can remember, those were the only two, Rose. There was also "Amends," but in that they were just lying on top of the bedcovers and were fully clothed.Ever since W/T began there have been people who grumbled about the sexual element being "downplayed." Personally, I prefer it that way and wish the heterosexual relationships could be brought more in line with that level, but that's just my personal taste. I suspect Joss will never show enough explicit W/T sexuality to satisfy everyone. I'm not even sure that he wants to. But hey, those who aren't satisfied can always read or write fanfic. That's what it's there for.
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Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 27, 2001 20:45
I like to see a loving relationship shown without all the overt sexuality. Xander and Anya handle the sex part nicely, thank you. Willow and Tara do the nasty I'm sure. But I don't need to see it. (Not that I'd be against it in the right circumstance...)But that's not what Joss is trying to show.And as far as Willow being the kooky side-kick, whell she was that from episode 1. She has become stronger with Tara, even becoming the "big gun" for Buffy. "You know you're the strongest one here, don't you?"
s
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posted August 27, 2001 20:45 I like to see a loving relationship shown without all the overt sexuality. Xander and Anya handle the sex part nicely, thank you. Willow and Tara do the nasty I'm sure. But I don't need to see it. (Not that I'd be against it in the right circumstance...)But that's not what Joss is trying to show.And as far as Willow being the kooky side-kick, whell she was that from episode 1. She has become stronger with Tara, even becoming the "big gun" for Buffy. "You know you're the strongest one here, don't you?"
s
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Posts: 118
Registered: Mar 2001 posted August 27, 2001 23:00
The evil willow spoilers I put down to some people lacking imagination..its seems rather a pedestrian idea to me .. this does not mean I don't think she may be subjected to some type of touble due to over-use of dark magick if she continues down that path but to me as yet she hasn't used the power for self interest but rather to help others which sort of defeats the concept of the magick being "dark" but anyway.. I think to a certain degree also the evil thing has something to do with people finding it had to relate to her because she is gay .. for some people it has meant they can't relate because part of the way they related was through her relationships and or lack thereofas for steoeotypes lots of them do bare resemblence to the "real" .. unfortunately I do not think that the above list are stereotypes .. to me a stereotype is someone like the flouncy gayboy Jack on Will & Grace ..and I know lots of gayboys that act that way .. the list above seems to me just to point towards a more hidden (or maybe not so) form of homophobia .. all of them de-humanise the subject they try to portray .. some more than others .. its starts with the fact that gay characters seem often to rarely have sex to them just being evil as such I don't see the list as stereotypes
I can guarantee that if BtVS was made primarily for either an English or Australian audience there would be more sex between all characters mainly for the reason that the religious rights ideology does not invade to such a degree in these places like it does in the US .. just an opinion not a dig at the US .. the gay "issue" wouldn't be an issue really .. except for a few dissenting voices ..
As for W/T I like the fact that we didn't have to have the long drawn out coming out thing and that they are more or less treated like other characters in the show .. less sex maybe.. but nonetheless the relationship seems at least to me to be treated overall as the same as other relationships .. the gay "issue" seems to some degree as irrelevant .. we can only hope to stop homophobic depictions of gay people by them being treated like everyone else .. even if stereotypes are used .. stereotypes appeal to the lowest comon denominator .. we recognise them and easily relate and as such are needed .. what we don't need or what I don't want is dehumanisation of gays, lesbians or anyone who happens to belong to a "minority".. JMO
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posted August 27, 2001 23:00 The evil willow spoilers I put down to some people lacking imagination..its seems rather a pedestrian idea to me .. this does not mean I don't think she may be subjected to some type of touble due to over-use of dark magick if she continues down that path but to me as yet she hasn't used the power for self interest but rather to help others which sort of defeats the concept of the magick being "dark" but anyway.. I think to a certain degree also the evil thing has something to do with people finding it had to relate to her because she is gay .. for some people it has meant they can't relate because part of the way they related was through her relationships and or lack thereofas for steoeotypes lots of them do bare resemblence to the "real" .. unfortunately I do not think that the above list are stereotypes .. to me a stereotype is someone like the flouncy gayboy Jack on Will & Grace ..and I know lots of gayboys that act that way .. the list above seems to me just to point towards a more hidden (or maybe not so) form of homophobia .. all of them de-humanise the subject they try to portray .. some more than others .. its starts with the fact that gay characters seem often to rarely have sex to them just being evil as such I don't see the list as stereotypes
I can guarantee that if BtVS was made primarily for either an English or Australian audience there would be more sex between all characters mainly for the reason that the religious rights ideology does not invade to such a degree in these places like it does in the US .. just an opinion not a dig at the US .. the gay "issue" wouldn't be an issue really .. except for a few dissenting voices ..
As for W/T I like the fact that we didn't have to have the long drawn out coming out thing and that they are more or less treated like other characters in the show .. less sex maybe.. but nonetheless the relationship seems at least to me to be treated overall as the same as other relationships .. the gay "issue" seems to some degree as irrelevant .. we can only hope to stop homophobic depictions of gay people by them being treated like everyone else .. even if stereotypes are used .. stereotypes appeal to the lowest comon denominator .. we recognise them and easily relate and as such are needed .. what we don't need or what I don't want is dehumanisation of gays, lesbians or anyone who happens to belong to a "minority".. JMO
IP: LoggedStraightGuyFriendunregistered posted August 28, 2001 02:25
quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
So, the point of my ramble is this: Joss is profoundly aware of the stereotypes of gay characters on TV, and he uses W/T to subvert those stereotypes.
This is why (SPOILER-WARNING) the spoilers about Willow going evil in season 6 haven't been entirely convincing.
I was about to disagree (slightly), but you then go on to explain what you mean which is closer to what I agree with. I'm one of those that "likes" the dark-Willow theory for season 6. I don't say "evil" because that would imply she's doing it deliberately (like Faith did) and I don't expect it to go that far. I think what could plausibly happen is that Willow gets more careless with her casual use of dark magick, causing friction between her and Tara (nooo!) and probably endangering others and those close to her (NOOO!). It's not Willow "going evil", it's Willow being corrupted by the easy power (like the dark side of the force), and possibly being tempted and corrupted into crossing the line (as Faith did) by the interference of a true "evil" force (the actual big bad for the season) ...Shannen Doherty! j/k.But what should make you happy, tyche, is that the presumable resolution to the dark-Willow problem is that it is the love she shares with Tara that ultimately saves her from darkness. I don't have any sort of inside knowledge (so this is just speculation--I wouldn't spoiler everyone if I knew something real), but I firmly believe that is the direction Joss would take it if the dark-Willow plotline is followed.
Wouldn't that be a great "stereotype"-buster. Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool... and worth all the pain and heartache along the way? Of course, if it happens that way the message (the way I'm reading it) could be too subtle for some people, but that might make it better because it could subliminally affect them without getting filtered by anti-gay bias. That's assuming that such people are still watching, of course; maybe the "stereotype" of the "big bad lesbian" will suck them in, so the resolution can hit them over the head.
Anyway, just something to think about.
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posted August 28, 2001 02:25 quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
So, the point of my ramble is this: Joss is profoundly aware of the stereotypes of gay characters on TV, and he uses W/T to subvert those stereotypes.
This is why (SPOILER-WARNING) the spoilers about Willow going evil in season 6 haven't been entirely convincing.
I was about to disagree (slightly), but you then go on to explain what you mean which is closer to what I agree with. I'm one of those that "likes" the dark-Willow theory for season 6. I don't say "evil" because that would imply she's doing it deliberately (like Faith did) and I don't expect it to go that far. I think what could plausibly happen is that Willow gets more careless with her casual use of dark magick, causing friction between her and Tara (nooo!) and probably endangering others and those close to her (NOOO!). It's not Willow "going evil", it's Willow being corrupted by the easy power (like the dark side of the force), and possibly being tempted and corrupted into crossing the line (as Faith did) by the interference of a true "evil" force (the actual big bad for the season) ...Shannen Doherty! j/k.But what should make you happy, tyche, is that the presumable resolution to the dark-Willow problem is that it is the love she shares with Tara that ultimately saves her from darkness. I don't have any sort of inside knowledge (so this is just speculation--I wouldn't spoiler everyone if I knew something real), but I firmly believe that is the direction Joss would take it if the dark-Willow plotline is followed.
Wouldn't that be a great "stereotype"-buster. Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool... and worth all the pain and heartache along the way? Of course, if it happens that way the message (the way I'm reading it) could be too subtle for some people, but that might make it better because it could subliminally affect them without getting filtered by anti-gay bias. That's assuming that such people are still watching, of course; maybe the "stereotype" of the "big bad lesbian" will suck them in, so the resolution can hit them over the head.
Anyway, just something to think about.
quote:IP: Loggedsmelly cheeseDoll's eye crystal
Posts: 95
Registered: Apr 2001 posted August 29, 2001 01:26
quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
It was also interesting to note that after 'Tough Love' aired, some people were saying on message boards that they suddenly felt a lot more comfortable with Tara, or they liked her now whereas they hadn't before. I wonder if this had anything to do with the fact that she'd been injured and this could be seen as 'punishment' for both her and Willow?
While I don't disagree that some people might have found Tara less threatening after she got brainsucked, but I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before, which also made her a more complex, and thereby likeable person. I mean, her character hasn't really been fleshed out as much as others, so that could be a reason why some people don't like her. When she finally showed some emotions that led themselves to drama and tension on the show, it makes her more human and more people can relate.
Anyway, not really on topic, but I just wanted to say that.
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posted August 29, 2001 01:26 quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
It was also interesting to note that after 'Tough Love' aired, some people were saying on message boards that they suddenly felt a lot more comfortable with Tara, or they liked her now whereas they hadn't before. I wonder if this had anything to do with the fact that she'd been injured and this could be seen as 'punishment' for both her and Willow?
While I don't disagree that some people might have found Tara less threatening after she got brainsucked, but I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before, which also made her a more complex, and thereby likeable person. I mean, her character hasn't really been fleshed out as much as others, so that could be a reason why some people don't like her. When she finally showed some emotions that led themselves to drama and tension on the show, it makes her more human and more people can relate.
Anyway, not really on topic, but I just wanted to say that.
quote:IP: LoggedDazeySassy Eggs
Posts: 716
Registered: Mar 2001 posted August 29, 2001 05:03
AK-UK wrote: "(see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche)."I can't comment on Gunn because I don't really watch Angel, but I'm curious to know how you think Forrest fits this cliché. I thought it was pretty clear that his anger was rooted in jealousy over Riley's relationship with Buffy.
Forrister, you summed up my feelings on stereotypes quite nicely. Thanks!
StraightGuyFriend wrote: "Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool..."
Yes it would! I really hope things turn out that way.
smelly cheese wrote: "I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before"
Well, I disagree with that...I think we'd been shown that side of Tara many times before, just not to such an obvious and undeniable degree. The naysayers simply could not ignore, distort, or gloss over Tara's heroic action in refusing to give up Dawn as the Key. Those of us who had always paid careful attention to the character knew to expect nothing less.
I think tyche's assertion that the brainsuck was viewed by some as punishment for being gay, and that that was responsible for turning the tide of opinion on Tara, has merit. Unfortunately. Let's not forget that it rendered Tara childlike and, therefore, non-sexual. Non-threatening. It will be interesting to see whether opinions remain changed now that Tara is herself again.
I tend to disagree with the assertion that Willow is a "deeply moral" person, and I'd like to address that, but unfortunately I just don't have time right now. In the future, perhaps.
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posted August 29, 2001 05:03 AK-UK wrote: "(see Forrest and Gunn for examples of the annoyingly overused angry black man cliche)."I can't comment on Gunn because I don't really watch Angel, but I'm curious to know how you think Forrest fits this cliché. I thought it was pretty clear that his anger was rooted in jealousy over Riley's relationship with Buffy.
Forrister, you summed up my feelings on stereotypes quite nicely. Thanks!
StraightGuyFriend wrote: "Saved from evil because she's gay! Remember, the darkness has nothing to do with her being gay any more than her witchcraft has to do with being gay. But it's the love she shares with another witch that ought to save her from going over the edge. Wouldn't that be cool..."
Yes it would! I really hope things turn out that way.
smelly cheese wrote: "I think Tough Love showed a side of Tara that we hadn't seen before"
Well, I disagree with that...I think we'd been shown that side of Tara many times before, just not to such an obvious and undeniable degree. The naysayers simply could not ignore, distort, or gloss over Tara's heroic action in refusing to give up Dawn as the Key. Those of us who had always paid careful attention to the character knew to expect nothing less.
I think tyche's assertion that the brainsuck was viewed by some as punishment for being gay, and that that was responsible for turning the tide of opinion on Tara, has merit. Unfortunately. Let's not forget that it rendered Tara childlike and, therefore, non-sexual. Non-threatening. It will be interesting to see whether opinions remain changed now that Tara is herself again.
I tend to disagree with the assertion that Willow is a "deeply moral" person, and I'd like to address that, but unfortunately I just don't have time right now. In the future, perhaps.
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Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 29, 2001 08:07
I don't think Willow is 'a deeply moral person' either. I think she is loving, self-sacrificing, kind, good hearted, and generous among other things, but moral is really low on that list.Look at how she started out. She was a computer hacker. We never saw her do anything malicious (like viruses or piracy or the like) but she did break into several databases. She may have had the best of motives but they never stopped her from breaking the law.
Look how she developed her spellcasting abilities. She had no initial misgivings about casting the spell that earned her the attention of D'Hoffryn, the head vengance demon. She was only sorry when confronted by the consequenses of her actions. She does the same thing when opening the dimensional door allowing Vamp-Willow to enter our world and again when going after Glory for revenge. A moral person would have stopped short of doing these things because they would have known it was wrong and anticipated the possible bad consequences.
The problem with Willow is that she has a tendancy to act first and be sorry later. I can see this leading to some more really hairy situations for our favorite redhead.
Diabolus Me Facibant Id Agere!
(The devil made me do it!)
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posted August 29, 2001 08:07 I don't think Willow is 'a deeply moral person' either. I think she is loving, self-sacrificing, kind, good hearted, and generous among other things, but moral is really low on that list.Look at how she started out. She was a computer hacker. We never saw her do anything malicious (like viruses or piracy or the like) but she did break into several databases. She may have had the best of motives but they never stopped her from breaking the law.
Look how she developed her spellcasting abilities. She had no initial misgivings about casting the spell that earned her the attention of D'Hoffryn, the head vengance demon. She was only sorry when confronted by the consequenses of her actions. She does the same thing when opening the dimensional door allowing Vamp-Willow to enter our world and again when going after Glory for revenge. A moral person would have stopped short of doing these things because they would have known it was wrong and anticipated the possible bad consequences.
The problem with Willow is that she has a tendancy to act first and be sorry later. I can see this leading to some more really hairy situations for our favorite redhead.
Diabolus Me Facibant Id Agere!
(The devil made me do it!)
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Registered: Aug 2001 posted August 29, 2001 08:44
Forrester,I was thinking the exact same things last night. I started typing up something called "The Ethics of Willow". She is definitely an "ends justify the means" kind of person. Witch-fu first and ask questions later. Good for many kinds of story lines this season. Some not so pleasant if we know Joss. Karma is karma after all.
S
[This message has been edited by Salix (edited August 29, 2001).]
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posted August 29, 2001 08:44 Forrester,I was thinking the exact same things last night. I started typing up something called "The Ethics of Willow". She is definitely an "ends justify the means" kind of person. Witch-fu first and ask questions later. Good for many kinds of story lines this season. Some not so pleasant if we know Joss. Karma is karma after all.
S
[This message has been edited by Salix (edited August 29, 2001).]
