Does Dawn 'know' about W/T relationship?

[meo_willowtarafan]

I submit that Dawn does know about W/T relationship. The scene where Dawn implies she didn't know was in episode 2.

By Intervention, Spike & Dawn both work over Buffy. (rough quotes out-of-context below)
Spike: ...for the one I love.

Though Dawn's quote implies a sisterly Love, she didn't bat an eye at Spike's implication. I felt that Dawn was trying to reach something that would affect Buffy and get her to understand. (It worked, too!)

I think the events after 'Real Me' (S5:2) probably produced the proper 'clues' to the true extent of the W/T relationship.

As has been stated, Dawn is a bright kid.
She probably doesn't need a wall to fall on her.

OTOH, apparently Joyce's Shadow started affecting her early, because she's seemed to have forgotten she knew a few episodes later in that classic and hilarious aside to W & T.

[CaBil]

quote:

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Originally posted by meo_willowtarafan:
I submit that Dawn does know about W/T relationship. The scene where Dawn implies she didn't know was in episode 2.

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Well, I am of the opinion that she knows, but the gang doesn't know that she knows. There is evidence in the script of Blood Ties that W&T are all sneaky around her. On the other hand, she certainly seems to know that Willow and Tara are really good 'friends' in Tough Love. After all, when asking about Tara, she immediately asks how Willow is taking it.

The rest of the gang still looks at her as a kid. All innocent and such, selectively not remembering that she is a freshman in HS, and probably just as aware as they were at that age.

So, I guess, since Willow and Tara seem to be trying to play low-key around her, she is willing to play along. After all, she likes them, and probably doesn't want to call them on it unless she a) is really annoyed with them or b) really want to embaress them. So it would be a weapon in her arensal that she is probably saving for a rainy day.

She probably also gets a kick off the idea that everyone scrambling around her to make sure she doesn't know.

Now, considering how much crap she went through the end of season, I don't know if she wants to or cares to keep up the illusion anymore. As the season wound down, all of her motivations and desires that she expressed in the S5.E2 was stripped away, down to the most basic desire, survival.

And in the last few minutes of The Gift, she was forced to reject even that. So who is Dawn now? How will she rebuild herself? No idea.

Be interesting to watch, though...

Bil

quote:

[knike74]

I think that she knows and accepts that they are together. I mean sometimes W/T would be babysitting her, and when she slept over after Forever(come on you don't really think that they slept in seperate beds) it just isn't that important to her, I guess it just isn't an issue.I know that I am not over affectionate with my gf when my nephews and neice are around( but I also know that they all know I am gay to, and it isn't an issue) It's too bad that the world isn't more accepting of gay/lesbian relationships.

[WOLFB8]

I think that if she didn't know before "Tough Love" then she most certainly did after. I really don't think there's anyway she couldn't have figured it out by that speech Willow gave in Tara's room at the end.

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She practically had "Genuine Molded Plastic" stamped on her ass.
Just tryin' a little spicy-talk.

Tara from "I Was Made To Love You"

[Roxton]

Dawn definitely knows about Willow and Tara's relationship. She's both bright and perceptive and after the dance at the end of Family I don't think there could be any doubt in Dawn's mind that Willow and Tara are a couple.

[xita]

I think that there was evidence that Dawn may not have known as late as the body,

TARA
Oh, baby, do you want me to rub your tummy?
(to Xander and Anya)
She likes it when I... stop explaining things.

This has passed over Dawn's head -- she looks in her nearly empty glass of nog.

However, something would have to be seriously wrong with her now if she didn't know. She's seen the way Willow has held and touched Tara in Spiral in particular. I am thining even my first graders could have figured it out.

[digginindigo]

And then there's the flashback scene in The Body. Sitting next to Dawn, Willow and Tara are holding hands, their arms resting on top of the table. And then Tara makes her infamous tummy rubbing offer. How could Dawn not know?

*Oops, Xita it looks like we cross posted.

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"I think being a beautiful, heavy, lesbian witch rocks." --Amber

[This message has been edited by digginindigo (edited June 01, 2001).]

[Dr.G]

Xita, that scene was a flash back scene. To me it just seemed that Dawn wasn't paying attention. Like it was no big deal.
She saw Spike was in love with Buffy when the others could not. She may not have known in the Real me, but she found out not long after I think. So I agree with Roxton, if she did not know at the start of Family, she certainly did by the end of it.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited June 01, 2001).]

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Shewolf
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Posts: 79
Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 11:00               

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I definitly think Dawn knows!I mean, she's a bright kid, there's no way she's oblivious to everything around her.
Unless she takes from Joyce on the whole "denial" thing.Remember seasons 1 and 2.That woman seemed to be permanently wearing a blindfold.Ah well, respect for the dead...

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Wiccagrrl
Tara Ass


Posts: 762
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 11:03               

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I definitely think Dawn knows, and probably knew as far back as Family. I just tend to think the slow dancing, floating two feet off the ground, was probably a hint

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

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imperfectly
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Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 14:13               

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She knows, she understands and she sympathizes. She even has to help explain the depth of their love (in a small way) to Buffy in Tough Love.

DAWN
Think, Buffy. If Glory'd done that to me...

I think her realization of their relationship was a bit like that of the (slower) viewers. Even though kitties like us could read the subtext a mile away, the scripts still danced around actually saying “Hello, gay no!” for a while. (Until Triangle to be exact).

But there is no doubt in my mind Dawn knows. She probably knew at least by Family. (Floating, dancing, etc. etc.) And then by Forever she is unfazed by the fact that Tara sleeps over at Willow’s. And from then on there’s just no question. (She's my always.)

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“Sassy eggs.”

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darvangi
Tara Ass


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Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 14:27               

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Yeah, after seeing Willow take care of Tara so lovingly, she's got to know. She's a smart kid. I will be really disappointed if, in some future episode, they write Dawn as still not knowing about W/T and their Love-That-Must-Not-Be-Named. Oh, wait, they did name it, didn't they? Lesbian, gay type lovers.

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"Go school! It's your birthday!"

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geekgod
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Registered: Jan 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:20               

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At first in 'real Me' it is obvious that Dawn is oblivious, but with Willow and Tara being so verbal about their relationship it would be impossible for someone to not know. I think that Dawn does know and just isn't verbal about her knowing, it probably is funny for her to watch her friends to freak around her. She's a smart girl she gets things. "yeah and Spike built a robot to play checkers with" - 'Intervention'.

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"

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CaptMurdock
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Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:54            

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Still, it would have been fun to see a scene like the following (post Blood Ties)...

(after Anya has made some typical inappropriate comment about Willow & Tara's relationship)

WILLOW: (to DAWN, in babble mode) Uh, what she means by that, uh, you see, Dawnie, is that -- that, in what way Tara and I are-- uh..."

TARA: W-w-we're just really -- no, actually, we're..."

DAWN: (matter of fact) Lesbians.

(Pin-drop quiet in the room as Buffy, Xander, Anya & Giles are unsure exactly how to proceed.)

DAWN: continuing What? You think 'cause I'm only fourteen, not to mention some kinda Key-energy-thingy in human form, that I don't notice stuff? You guys at (points at Tara) your birthday party; that dance you two did three feet off the floor? Get-a-room time. And that whole "tummy-rubbing" thing at Christmas? Dead giveaway. (shakes her head) You two have the subtlety of, well, Anya.

ANYA: Hey!

DAWN: Sorry.

TARA: It d-doesn't freak you out? I mean, us being...together?

DAWN: (major eye-rolling) What, you kidding me? Big sister...used to date a vampire, then kinda settled down with Captain James Bond America soldier dude. Your girlfriend...dated a werewolf. In a band. points to Xander Sleeping with a thousand-year-old ex-vengeance demon.

XANDER: But she doesn't look a day over five hundred! (sees that Anya is less than amused) And I'm in the doghouse again.

DAWN: (indicated Willow and Tara) You guys are practically normal. Get over it. I'm late for Melinda's. Bye. (exits)

WILLOW: (to Tara) We're normal. Who'd'a thunk it.

[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited June 01, 2001).]

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meo_willowtarafan
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Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:56            

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Hmm, y'know, I hadn't really thought hard on 'when' Dawn might have known. Around Family or Triangle might be a good time for her to be putting 2 and 2 together. I wonder about the dance, though, as no one else in the crowd seemed to notice either, so I wonder if there was a concealing illusion spell to mask them. If so, perhaps Dawn was 'blind' to the floating dance also. But as others have said, after "The Body", it could not be mistaken such that by Tough Love Dawn probably accepts it without question or doubt.

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imperfectly
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Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:56               

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Hee Hee... Funny scene. I like that.

It's true. They are the most normal relationship on the show.

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“Sassy eggs.”

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Shaniezak
Tara Ass


Posts: 636
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 01, 2001 19:10               

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*rofl*

Great one, CaptMurdock.

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Roxton
Strong like an Amazon


Posts: 2628
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 20:06               

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CaptMurdock that dialogue was hilarious, it would have made a great scene. I can just picture Dawn doing that.

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trinity81
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Posts: 70
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 01, 2001 23:16               

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That scene was sssssoooooo funny.I wish that would happen.You should be a writer for Buffy, Captmurdock you got the dialogue down
Oh, and i so think that Dawn knows about Willow and Tara, how could she not?

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dokkyo168
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Posts: 13
Registered: Oct 2000 posted June 01, 2001 23:33               

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I think she knows but it is a non-issue. And as for the protecting thing by the gang, I feel that they try to protect her more from sex thing in general (i.e. tara's chess/checkers? cover in Intervention) rather than who is in a the relationship with who.

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april
Gay Now!


Posts: 1748
Registered: Oct 2000 posted June 02, 2001 01:44               

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hee. funny scene. i too am solidly in the camp of "duh! dawn totally knows!"

i mnean, when *buffy* was 15, she started dating angel. and no one thought she was too young for dating or knowing about relationships or anything like that. so i think dawn, not being an idiot, has definitely figured it out. and since she's stayed overnight with willow and tara, and is into the whole witchcraft thing, we must assume that it's also no big deal for her at all.

ah, i love our little dawnie...

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Warduke
Big Pineapple


Posts: 1142
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 02, 2001 01:48               

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Dawn HAS to know, she can't be that dense?...can she

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fell
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 281
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 02, 2001 07:55               

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I think there's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of adults about what kids know or don't know. I think Dawn has been hip for quite a while.

In Forever, when Dawn spent the night in Willow's room, i noticed that the next morning Willow had changed while Tara was wearing the same outfit as the night before and i just assumed she spent the night as well. They didn't make any effort to indicate otherwise.

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ambers.toy
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 280
Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 02, 2001 09:47               

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Yeah, Dawnie would have to be totally dense not to realise, I'm pretty sure she had her suspicions fairly early on, but my guess is that Family was the first time she really cottoned onto their relationship, what with the whole magic shop conversation thing and the party afterwards.

As Fell mentioned I took it as read that Tara stayed with them in Forever, I mean both she and Willow were in their PJ's while they were trying to talk Dawn out of resurrecting Joyce, and I can't see Tara walking back to her room in just her pyjamas! Dawn is obviously cool with it though, I mean there's only 1 bed in Willow's room so it was clear that W+T would be sharing it!!

I always thought that Joss was beyond cool with that, I mean I'm sure there are people out there in 'Denial Land' who were horrified by the fact that Dawnie stayed there with them while they shared a bed!!

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]

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Hugin
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico


Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

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I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

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[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited June 01, 2001).]IP: LoggedShewolfDoll's eye crystal


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Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 11:00               

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I definitly think Dawn knows!I mean, she's a bright kid, there's no way she's oblivious to everything around her.
Unless she takes from Joyce on the whole "denial" thing.Remember seasons 1 and 2.That woman seemed to be permanently wearing a blindfold.Ah well, respect for the dead...

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posted June 01, 2001 11:00                I definitly think Dawn knows!I mean, she's a bright kid, there's no way she's oblivious to everything around her.
Unless she takes from Joyce on the whole "denial" thing.Remember seasons 1 and 2.That woman seemed to be permanently wearing a blindfold.Ah well, respect for the dead...IP: LoggedWiccagrrlTara Ass


Posts: 762
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 11:03               

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I definitely think Dawn knows, and probably knew as far back as Family. I just tend to think the slow dancing, floating two feet off the ground, was probably a hint

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

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posted June 01, 2001 11:03                I definitely think Dawn knows, and probably knew as far back as Family. I just tend to think the slow dancing, floating two feet off the ground, was probably a hint

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.IP: LoggedimperfectlyCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 182
Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 14:13               

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She knows, she understands and she sympathizes. She even has to help explain the depth of their love (in a small way) to Buffy in Tough Love.

DAWN
Think, Buffy. If Glory'd done that to me...

I think her realization of their relationship was a bit like that of the (slower) viewers. Even though kitties like us could read the subtext a mile away, the scripts still danced around actually saying “Hello, gay no!” for a while. (Until Triangle to be exact).

But there is no doubt in my mind Dawn knows. She probably knew at least by Family. (Floating, dancing, etc. etc.) And then by Forever she is unfazed by the fact that Tara sleeps over at Willow’s. And from then on there’s just no question. (She's my always.)

------------------
“Sassy eggs.”

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posted June 01, 2001 14:13                She knows, she understands and she sympathizes. She even has to help explain the depth of their love (in a small way) to Buffy in Tough Love.

DAWN
Think, Buffy. If Glory'd done that to me...

I think her realization of their relationship was a bit like that of the (slower) viewers. Even though kitties like us could read the subtext a mile away, the scripts still danced around actually saying “Hello, gay no!” for a while. (Until Triangle to be exact).

But there is no doubt in my mind Dawn knows. She probably knew at least by Family. (Floating, dancing, etc. etc.) And then by Forever she is unfazed by the fact that Tara sleeps over at Willow’s. And from then on there’s just no question. (She's my always.)

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“Sassy eggs.”IP: LoggeddarvangiTara Ass


Posts: 629
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 14:27               

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Yeah, after seeing Willow take care of Tara so lovingly, she's got to know. She's a smart kid. I will be really disappointed if, in some future episode, they write Dawn as still not knowing about W/T and their Love-That-Must-Not-Be-Named. Oh, wait, they did name it, didn't they? Lesbian, gay type lovers.

---------------
"Go school! It's your birthday!"

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posted June 01, 2001 14:27                Yeah, after seeing Willow take care of Tara so lovingly, she's got to know. She's a smart kid. I will be really disappointed if, in some future episode, they write Dawn as still not knowing about W/T and their Love-That-Must-Not-Be-Named. Oh, wait, they did name it, didn't they? Lesbian, gay type lovers.

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"Go school! It's your birthday!" IP: LoggedgeekgodCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 133
Registered: Jan 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:20               

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At first in 'real Me' it is obvious that Dawn is oblivious, but with Willow and Tara being so verbal about their relationship it would be impossible for someone to not know. I think that Dawn does know and just isn't verbal about her knowing, it probably is funny for her to watch her friends to freak around her. She's a smart girl she gets things. "yeah and Spike built a robot to play checkers with" - 'Intervention'.

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"

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posted June 01, 2001 18:20                At first in 'real Me' it is obvious that Dawn is oblivious, but with Willow and Tara being so verbal about their relationship it would be impossible for someone to not know. I think that Dawn does know and just isn't verbal about her knowing, it probably is funny for her to watch her friends to freak around her. She's a smart girl she gets things. "yeah and Spike built a robot to play checkers with" - 'Intervention'.

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"IP: LoggedCaptMurdockDoll's eye crystal


Posts: 80
Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:54            

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Still, it would have been fun to see a scene like the following (post Blood Ties)...

(after Anya has made some typical inappropriate comment about Willow & Tara's relationship)

WILLOW: (to DAWN, in babble mode) Uh, what she means by that, uh, you see, Dawnie, is that -- that, in what way Tara and I are-- uh..."

TARA: W-w-we're just really -- no, actually, we're..."

DAWN: (matter of fact) Lesbians.

(Pin-drop quiet in the room as Buffy, Xander, Anya & Giles are unsure exactly how to proceed.)

DAWN: continuing What? You think 'cause I'm only fourteen, not to mention some kinda Key-energy-thingy in human form, that I don't notice stuff? You guys at (points at Tara) your birthday party; that dance you two did three feet off the floor? Get-a-room time. And that whole "tummy-rubbing" thing at Christmas? Dead giveaway. (shakes her head) You two have the subtlety of, well, Anya.

ANYA: Hey!

DAWN: Sorry.

TARA: It d-doesn't freak you out? I mean, us being...together?

DAWN: (major eye-rolling) What, you kidding me? Big sister...used to date a vampire, then kinda settled down with Captain James Bond America soldier dude. Your girlfriend...dated a werewolf. In a band. points to Xander Sleeping with a thousand-year-old ex-vengeance demon.

XANDER: But she doesn't look a day over five hundred! (sees that Anya is less than amused) And I'm in the doghouse again.

DAWN: (indicated Willow and Tara) You guys are practically normal. Get over it. I'm late for Melinda's. Bye. (exits)

WILLOW: (to Tara) We're normal. Who'd'a thunk it.

[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited June 01, 2001).]

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posted June 01, 2001 18:54             Still, it would have been fun to see a scene like the following (post Blood Ties)...

(after Anya has made some typical inappropriate comment about Willow & Tara's relationship)

WILLOW: (to DAWN, in babble mode) Uh, what she means by that, uh, you see, Dawnie, is that -- that, in what way Tara and I are-- uh..."

TARA: W-w-we're just really -- no, actually, we're..."

DAWN: (matter of fact) Lesbians.

(Pin-drop quiet in the room as Buffy, Xander, Anya & Giles are unsure exactly how to proceed.)

DAWN: continuing What? You think 'cause I'm only fourteen, not to mention some kinda Key-energy-thingy in human form, that I don't notice stuff? You guys at (points at Tara) your birthday party; that dance you two did three feet off the floor? Get-a-room time. And that whole "tummy-rubbing" thing at Christmas? Dead giveaway. (shakes her head) You two have the subtlety of, well, Anya.

ANYA: Hey!

DAWN: Sorry.

TARA: It d-doesn't freak you out? I mean, us being...together?

DAWN: (major eye-rolling) What, you kidding me? Big sister...used to date a vampire, then kinda settled down with Captain James Bond America soldier dude. Your girlfriend...dated a werewolf. In a band. points to Xander Sleeping with a thousand-year-old ex-vengeance demon.

XANDER: But she doesn't look a day over five hundred! (sees that Anya is less than amused) And I'm in the doghouse again.

DAWN: (indicated Willow and Tara) You guys are practically normal. Get over it. I'm late for Melinda's. Bye. (exits)

WILLOW: (to Tara) We're normal. Who'd'a thunk it.

[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited June 01, 2001).]IP: Loggedmeo_willowtarafanFloating Rose


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Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:56            

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Hmm, y'know, I hadn't really thought hard on 'when' Dawn might have known. Around Family or Triangle might be a good time for her to be putting 2 and 2 together. I wonder about the dance, though, as no one else in the crowd seemed to notice either, so I wonder if there was a concealing illusion spell to mask them. If so, perhaps Dawn was 'blind' to the floating dance also. But as others have said, after "The Body", it could not be mistaken such that by Tough Love Dawn probably accepts it without question or doubt.

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posted June 01, 2001 18:56             Hmm, y'know, I hadn't really thought hard on 'when' Dawn might have known. Around Family or Triangle might be a good time for her to be putting 2 and 2 together. I wonder about the dance, though, as no one else in the crowd seemed to notice either, so I wonder if there was a concealing illusion spell to mask them. If so, perhaps Dawn was 'blind' to the floating dance also. But as others have said, after "The Body", it could not be mistaken such that by Tough Love Dawn probably accepts it without question or doubt.
IP: LoggedimperfectlyCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 182
Registered: May 2001 posted June 01, 2001 18:56               

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Hee Hee... Funny scene. I like that.

It's true. They are the most normal relationship on the show.

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“Sassy eggs.”

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posted June 01, 2001 18:56                Hee Hee... Funny scene. I like that.

It's true. They are the most normal relationship on the show.

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“Sassy eggs.”IP: LoggedShaniezakTara Ass


Posts: 636
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 01, 2001 19:10               

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*rofl*

Great one, CaptMurdock.

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posted June 01, 2001 19:10                *rofl*

Great one, CaptMurdock.
IP: LoggedRoxtonStrong like an Amazon


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Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 01, 2001 20:06               

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CaptMurdock that dialogue was hilarious, it would have made a great scene. I can just picture Dawn doing that.

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posted June 01, 2001 20:06                CaptMurdock that dialogue was hilarious, it would have made a great scene. I can just picture Dawn doing that.IP: Loggedtrinity81Doll's eye crystal


Posts: 70
Registered: Apr 2001 posted June 01, 2001 23:16               

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That scene was sssssoooooo funny.I wish that would happen.You should be a writer for Buffy, Captmurdock you got the dialogue down
Oh, and i so think that Dawn knows about Willow and Tara, how could she not?

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posted June 01, 2001 23:16                That scene was sssssoooooo funny.I wish that would happen.You should be a writer for Buffy, Captmurdock you got the dialogue down
Oh, and i so think that Dawn knows about Willow and Tara, how could she not?IP: Loggeddokkyo168Blessed Wannabe


Posts: 13
Registered: Oct 2000 posted June 01, 2001 23:33               

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I think she knows but it is a non-issue. And as for the protecting thing by the gang, I feel that they try to protect her more from sex thing in general (i.e. tara's chess/checkers? cover in Intervention) rather than who is in a the relationship with who.

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posted June 01, 2001 23:33                I think she knows but it is a non-issue. And as for the protecting thing by the gang, I feel that they try to protect her more from sex thing in general (i.e. tara's chess/checkers? cover in Intervention) rather than who is in a the relationship with who.IP: LoggedaprilGay Now!


Posts: 1748
Registered: Oct 2000 posted June 02, 2001 01:44               

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hee. funny scene. i too am solidly in the camp of "duh! dawn totally knows!"

i mnean, when *buffy* was 15, she started dating angel. and no one thought she was too young for dating or knowing about relationships or anything like that. so i think dawn, not being an idiot, has definitely figured it out. and since she's stayed overnight with willow and tara, and is into the whole witchcraft thing, we must assume that it's also no big deal for her at all.

ah, i love our little dawnie...

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posted June 02, 2001 01:44                hee. funny scene. i too am solidly in the camp of "duh! dawn totally knows!"

i mnean, when *buffy* was 15, she started dating angel. and no one thought she was too young for dating or knowing about relationships or anything like that. so i think dawn, not being an idiot, has definitely figured it out. and since she's stayed overnight with willow and tara, and is into the whole witchcraft thing, we must assume that it's also no big deal for her at all.

ah, i love our little dawnie...IP: LoggedWardukeBig Pineapple


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Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 02, 2001 01:48               

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Dawn HAS to know, she can't be that dense?...can she

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posted June 02, 2001 01:48                Dawn HAS to know, she can't be that dense?...can she IP: LoggedfellCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 281
Registered: Nov 2000 posted June 02, 2001 07:55               

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I think there's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of adults about what kids know or don't know. I think Dawn has been hip for quite a while.

In Forever, when Dawn spent the night in Willow's room, i noticed that the next morning Willow had changed while Tara was wearing the same outfit as the night before and i just assumed she spent the night as well. They didn't make any effort to indicate otherwise.

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posted June 02, 2001 07:55                I think there's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of adults about what kids know or don't know. I think Dawn has been hip for quite a while.

In Forever, when Dawn spent the night in Willow's room, i noticed that the next morning Willow had changed while Tara was wearing the same outfit as the night before and i just assumed she spent the night as well. They didn't make any effort to indicate otherwise.IP: Loggedambers.toyCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 280
Registered: Mar 2001 posted June 02, 2001 09:47               

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Yeah, Dawnie would have to be totally dense not to realise, I'm pretty sure she had her suspicions fairly early on, but my guess is that Family was the first time she really cottoned onto their relationship, what with the whole magic shop conversation thing and the party afterwards.

As Fell mentioned I took it as read that Tara stayed with them in Forever, I mean both she and Willow were in their PJ's while they were trying to talk Dawn out of resurrecting Joyce, and I can't see Tara walking back to her room in just her pyjamas! Dawn is obviously cool with it though, I mean there's only 1 bed in Willow's room so it was clear that W+T would be sharing it!!

I always thought that Joss was beyond cool with that, I mean I'm sure there are people out there in 'Denial Land' who were horrified by the fact that Dawnie stayed there with them while they shared a bed!!

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]

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Hugin
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Fantastico


Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

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I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

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posted June 02, 2001 09:47                Yeah, Dawnie would have to be totally dense not to realise, I'm pretty sure she had her suspicions fairly early on, but my guess is that Family was the first time she really cottoned onto their relationship, what with the whole magic shop conversation thing and the party afterwards.

As Fell mentioned I took it as read that Tara stayed with them in Forever, I mean both she and Willow were in their PJ's while they were trying to talk Dawn out of resurrecting Joyce, and I can't see Tara walking back to her room in just her pyjamas! Dawn is obviously cool with it though, I mean there's only 1 bed in Willow's room so it was clear that W+T would be sharing it!!

I always thought that Joss was beyond cool with that, I mean I'm sure there are people out there in 'Denial Land' who were horrified by the fact that Dawnie stayed there with them while they shared a bed!!

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]

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Hugin
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Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

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I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

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[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator
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Registered: Sep 2000Ms. Moderator
Fantastico posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

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I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

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posted June 02, 2001 11:11                I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

[Shewolf]

I definitly think Dawn knows!I mean, she's a bright kid, there's no way she's oblivious to everything around her.
Unless she takes from Joyce on the whole "denial" thing.Remember seasons 1 and 2.That woman seemed to be permanently wearing a blindfold.Ah well, respect for the dead...

[Wiccagrrl]

I definitely think Dawn knows, and probably knew as far back as Family. I just tend to think the slow dancing, floating two feet off the ground, was probably a hint

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[imperfectly]

She knows, she understands and she sympathizes. She even has to help explain the depth of their love (in a small way) to Buffy in Tough Love.

DAWN
Think, Buffy. If Glory'd done that to me...

I think her realization of their relationship was a bit like that of the (slower) viewers. Even though kitties like us could read the subtext a mile away, the scripts still danced around actually saying “Hello, gay no!” for a while. (Until Triangle to be exact).

But there is no doubt in my mind Dawn knows. She probably knew at least by Family. (Floating, dancing, etc. etc.) And then by Forever she is unfazed by the fact that Tara sleeps over at Willow’s. And from then on there’s just no question. (She's my always.)

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“Sassy eggs.”

[darvangi]

Yeah, after seeing Willow take care of Tara so lovingly, she's got to know. She's a smart kid. I will be really disappointed if, in some future episode, they write Dawn as still not knowing about W/T and their Love-That-Must-Not-Be-Named. Oh, wait, they did name it, didn't they? Lesbian, gay type lovers.

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"Go school! It's your birthday!"

[geekgod]

At first in 'real Me' it is obvious that Dawn is oblivious, but with Willow and Tara being so verbal about their relationship it would be impossible for someone to not know. I think that Dawn does know and just isn't verbal about her knowing, it probably is funny for her to watch her friends to freak around her. She's a smart girl she gets things. "yeah and Spike built a robot to play checkers with" - 'Intervention'.

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willow: "i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"That's my girl"

[CaptMurdock]

Still, it would have been fun to see a scene like the following (post Blood Ties)...

(after Anya has made some typical inappropriate comment about Willow & Tara's relationship)

WILLOW: (to DAWN, in babble mode) Uh, what she means by that, uh, you see, Dawnie, is that -- that, in what way Tara and I are-- uh..."

TARA: W-w-we're just really -- no, actually, we're..."

DAWN: (matter of fact) Lesbians.

(Pin-drop quiet in the room as Buffy, Xander, Anya & Giles are unsure exactly how to proceed.)

DAWN: continuing What? You think 'cause I'm only fourteen, not to mention some kinda Key-energy-thingy in human form, that I don't notice stuff? You guys at (points at Tara) your birthday party; that dance you two did three feet off the floor? Get-a-room time. And that whole "tummy-rubbing" thing at Christmas? Dead giveaway. (shakes her head) You two have the subtlety of, well, Anya.

ANYA: Hey!

DAWN: Sorry.

TARA: It d-doesn't freak you out? I mean, us being...together?

DAWN: (major eye-rolling) What, you kidding me? Big sister...used to date a vampire, then kinda settled down with Captain James Bond America soldier dude. Your girlfriend...dated a werewolf. In a band. points to Xander Sleeping with a thousand-year-old ex-vengeance demon.

XANDER: But she doesn't look a day over five hundred! (sees that Anya is less than amused) And I'm in the doghouse again.

DAWN: (indicated Willow and Tara) You guys are practically normal. Get over it. I'm late for Melinda's. Bye. (exits)

WILLOW: (to Tara) We're normal. Who'd'a thunk it.

[This message has been edited by CaptMurdock (edited June 01, 2001).]

[meo_willowtarafan]

Hmm, y'know, I hadn't really thought hard on 'when' Dawn might have known. Around Family or Triangle might be a good time for her to be putting 2 and 2 together. I wonder about the dance, though, as no one else in the crowd seemed to notice either, so I wonder if there was a concealing illusion spell to mask them. If so, perhaps Dawn was 'blind' to the floating dance also. But as others have said, after "The Body", it could not be mistaken such that by Tough Love Dawn probably accepts it without question or doubt.

[imperfectly]

Hee Hee... Funny scene. I like that.

It's true. They are the most normal relationship on the show.

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“Sassy eggs.”

[Shaniezak]

*rofl*

Great one, CaptMurdock.

[Roxton]

CaptMurdock that dialogue was hilarious, it would have made a great scene. I can just picture Dawn doing that.

[trinity81]

That scene was sssssoooooo funny.I wish that would happen.You should be a writer for Buffy, Captmurdock you got the dialogue down
Oh, and i so think that Dawn knows about Willow and Tara, how could she not?

[dokkyo168]

I think she knows but it is a non-issue. And as for the protecting thing by the gang, I feel that they try to protect her more from sex thing in general (i.e. tara's chess/checkers? cover in Intervention) rather than who is in a the relationship with who.

[april]

hee. funny scene. i too am solidly in the camp of "duh! dawn totally knows!"

i mnean, when *buffy* was 15, she started dating angel. and no one thought she was too young for dating or knowing about relationships or anything like that. so i think dawn, not being an idiot, has definitely figured it out. and since she's stayed overnight with willow and tara, and is into the whole witchcraft thing, we must assume that it's also no big deal for her at all.

ah, i love our little dawnie...

[Warduke]

Dawn HAS to know, she can't be that dense?...can she

[fell]

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of adults about what kids know or don't know. I think Dawn has been hip for quite a while.

In Forever, when Dawn spent the night in Willow's room, i noticed that the next morning Willow had changed while Tara was wearing the same outfit as the night before and i just assumed she spent the night as well. They didn't make any effort to indicate otherwise.

[ambers.toy]

Yeah, Dawnie would have to be totally dense not to realise, I'm pretty sure she had her suspicions fairly early on, but my guess is that Family was the first time she really cottoned onto their relationship, what with the whole magic shop conversation thing and the party afterwards.

As Fell mentioned I took it as read that Tara stayed with them in Forever, I mean both she and Willow were in their PJ's while they were trying to talk Dawn out of resurrecting Joyce, and I can't see Tara walking back to her room in just her pyjamas! Dawn is obviously cool with it though, I mean there's only 1 bed in Willow's room so it was clear that W+T would be sharing it!!

I always thought that Joss was beyond cool with that, I mean I'm sure there are people out there in 'Denial Land' who were horrified by the fact that Dawnie stayed there with them while they shared a bed!!

------------------
To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]

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Hugin
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico


Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000 posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

---

I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

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[This message has been edited by WillTara (edited June 02, 2001).]IP: LoggedHuginMs. Moderator
Fantastico


Posts: 787
Registered: Sep 2000Ms. Moderator
Fantastico posted June 02, 2001 11:11               

---

I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

IP: Logged

posted June 02, 2001 11:11                I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

[Hugin]

I agree with the idea that in most of the cases where it's written or portrayed that Dawn may be oblivious to W/T, it's actually meant that she's oblivious, or is supposed to be oblivious to more or less direct sexual references. I mean, even in the "going over her head" flashback scene in the Body, while she may have not noticed the tummy rub line, she can't have failed to notice Willow and Tara holding hands on top of the table right across from her. And all the events of the latter quarter of the season completely seal it, she's seen Willow and Tara interacting intimately, speaking to each other, declaring love too often. Joyce was sometimes written as an agressively unobservant character, I could concievably buy her not having known, but not Dawn.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited June 02, 2001).]

[CaBil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ambers.toy:
Dawn is obviously cool with it though, I mean there's only 1 bed in Willow's room so it was clear that W+T would be sharing it!!

---

Remembering the episode, there was two bedrolls on the floor. Tara sat on one, Dawn on the other during parts of that scene.

The implication being Tara sacked out on the floor next to Dawn, while Willow was on the bed.

As someone else pointed out, Tara had the same clothes on in the morning. So Dawn wouldn't wonder why Tara had clothes over at Willow's.

Whatever Dawn knows or doesn't know, it didn't directly come from that episode.

Just musing...

Bilquote:

[ambers.toy]

I didn't notice the other bedroll on the floor, guess I'll have to go and watch the ep again (it's a tough job, but someone's got to do it!!)

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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[xita]

I don't see a bed roll.
http://www.peccath.com/extraflamey/seas ... /for10.jpg

[ambers.toy]

I just finished watching Forever and to be honest I couldn't see another bedroll, it looked like Tara was sitting on the carpet just like Willow with Dawn in between them! Another thing that puzzled me is that we didn't see what Tara was wearing after the funeral, the next time we see her is in the bedroom when she + Willow are talking to Dawnie in their PJ's, so how do we know she's wearing the same clothes in the morning!

Not that it really matters of course, I I just really, really like them sharing the same bed, it makes me smile and gives me lots of warm fuzzies!!

Edited to say, oops, sorry Xita, didn't notice your post, too busy drooling over the bed scene in Forever, yum, yum, but as ever you say it with pictures so much better than I can with words!!
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To love someone deeply gives you strength. Being loved by someone deeply gives you courage. -- Lao Tzu

[This message has been edited by ambers.toy (edited June 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ambers.toy (edited June 02, 2001).]

[BBOvenGuy]

Hi... getting to this thread late and therefore restating what everyone else has already said, but...

I think Dawn knows. She couldn't not know - too many things have happened right in front of her face. Willow and Tara have been too openly affectionate. Willow has gone through her "Hello, gay now!" phase where she was telling everyone in sight. Dawn couldn't have missed all of it. In fact, I think she's so familiar with the concept that it has ceased to be worth bothering about to her.

Going back to The Real Me, though, remember that there has been a progression ever since NMR in how open Willow and Tara have been around the Scooby gang. Willow called Tara her girlfriend in The Yoko Factor, but we didn't really get any more unmistakable declarations like that until "Hello, gay now!" Willow and Tara weren't even all that publicly demonstrative about their affections until Family.

On this board, I know we took the lack of visible affection as a sign that the WB was censoring Joss, but maybe Joss was in more control than we thought. Maybe Joss thought it was a natural part of the relationship's evolution that for a while the girls wouldn't be as open around other people and over time they would become more comfortable and therefore more public.

Okay, and now I've steered this thread in a completely new direction, so I'll leave off there and see whether the group wants to continue down that path or pull things back to the original topic.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."