Willow's Sexuality

[Him]

posted 05-26-2001 21:22 EST (US)
Is she gay or bi? I'm thinking bisexual because she was when she was a vampire, and thought Dracula was sexy. Questions? Comments?

[shannon720]

posted 05-26-2001 21:24 EST (US)
in my opinion, i'd say bi, mainly because she's liked both guys (oz, xander, dracula) and girls (tara, herself when a vamp).

-shannon

[Zahir]

posted 05-26-2001 21:41 EST (US)
I've been told many lesbians have relationships, even happy ones, with men before realising their true orientation.

Nevertheless, I come down (pardon the pun) on Willow being technically bi because her vampire self was so clearly in love with Xander (as well as getting a kick out of torturing Angel--as did Xander, but that's another story).

Still, its all technical because Willow's totally and absolutely in love with Tara!

And anyway, methinks "homosexual" "heterosexual" and "bisexual" are just shorthand for a much more complex phenomonan.

Unclicking soapbox icon now...

------------------
"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[xita]

posted 05-26-2001 22:01 EST (US)
I'll go with gay, mostly because that's what Willow said I am not going to argue with her because identity is oh so very complex.

[TashaR]

posted 05-26-2001 23:18 EST (US)
You know, I've actually been debating that and I'm going to have to agree with Zahir.

I think you can be straight and attracted to a girl (or guy) or lesbian and find a guy (or girl...sorry, writing this from a girl's perspective) I mean, I can drool over David Boreanaz but I'm first in line to admit that Amber is a hottie! hehe.

But I have to say that I think Willow is Bi, only because otherwise it completely screws over her relationship with Oz...I really liked them together (not quite as much as our girls though!) and I think that saying she's gay is almost saying "Oz was an experiment"

Oh bollocks. I don't know what I'm talking about. Ignore me. Carry on.

[Warduke]

posted 05-26-2001 23:19 EST (US)
Before Triangle, I would have said she was bi but since Willow herself says she's gay, then she must be gay...and I think that's what the writers are saying too, just look at all the gay references about Willow this year.

And about Dracula, that scene was to show that Willow was bi but I think that after awhile Joss decided that he didn't want to go with that, he wanted Willow gay, so since Triangle, Willow has been gay gay gay

Tasha...why would you think that Willow being gay now invalidates her relationship with Oz?
Like Zahir said, many lesbians have had relationships with men and they were truly in love with those men but once they found that "special woman" it made them realize that they were gay but that doesn't mean that they didn't really love the men they were with before, it's just that now they know they're gay.
For me Willow being gay now instead of bi doesn't take away anything from her feelings for Oz at the time she was with him.

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited May 26, 2001).]

[Him]

posted 05-26-2001 23:35 EST (US)
>>And about Dracula, that scene was to show that Willow was bi but I think that after awhile Joss decided that he didn't want to go with that, he wanted Willow gay, so since Triangle, Willow has been gay gay gay<<

Hmmmm...the way you put that got me thinking...I think Joss is smart enough to notice something like that. I mean, those 2 are in the same season after all, and I'm sure they go through them 100x to make sure all the episodes are consistant in what he wants to portray.

If I were bi, I'd probably say I'm gay once in while to mix things up. It sure beats having to explain bi to your more daft people....

[xita]

posted 05-26-2001 23:46 EST (US)
I had boyfriends and I know women who are gay now, and loved their boyfriends then. It doesn't say anything about what is going on now. I think most of us have argued this topic before and there isn't much new to be brought to the table. Seems like people believe what they believe.

About Dracula, I think there are men that are sexy and dreamy and I still don't want to sleep with them, but I don't think that was the point of that. I think the point of that and the point of April the robot is that Tara is very capable of that nasty jealousy bug. It was a build up to their fight in Tough Love. If the fight in tough love doesn't convince you that Willow thinks of herself as gay, I really don't know what will. She basically is so angry that Tara would even think that it's a temporary condition for her and that she's heading back to boy's town. She's seriously irked because Tara doesn't think she has enough lesbo street cred to be considered a lesbian. Sad most people still don't believe her either. She wants a little respect and I am willing to give it to her. She says over and over she's gay, she's gay.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited May 27, 2001).]

[Lijdrec]

posted 05-26-2001 23:49 EST (US)
Willow is quite obviously a bi-sexual character, but very much in love with Tara (Gay now!). Love is the operative word here not her sexuality. But Willow ........

Semi-spoiler

9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

....still a sweet spot in her heart for Xander.

----------------------------
Smart girls are so sexy! Xander talking of Anya (of all people!).
You couldn't have figured that out in 10th grade? Willow in reply.....

[This message has been edited by Lijdrec (edited May 26, 2001).]

[Warduke]

posted 05-26-2001 23:52 EST (US)
Willow loves Xander...as a friend, she does not have any romantic feelings for him anymore, they have made that obvious on the show.

[BBOvenGuy]

posted 05-26-2001 23:55 EST (US)
My goodness, but people are pushing all the hot buttons today...

I'm siding with those who say Willow is gay because Willow says she's gay. You and I and half the western world can judge what we think she is based upon what we've seen and by our standards. Willow is the only one inside her own skin. Just because it's fictional skin that doesn't mean it isn't real. If Willow says she's gay, then for my money she's gay.

And I just knew that sooner or later someone was going to take that "You couldn't have figured that out in the tenth grade?" comment and use it to imply that Willow was bi and/or still had a thing for Xander. Personally, I took it more to be Willow simply reflecting on days gone by with an old friend.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

[BBOvenGuy]

posted 05-27-2001 01:03 EST (US)
Here's the relevant portion of the fight scene from Rayne's Shooting Script Site. That's the best I can do until freakin' Mindspring decides to let me have my webspace back and the mp3 file I made becomes available again.

quote:

---

WILLOW
(vulnerable)
I think you're being pretty clear. It isn't the witch thing -- this is about the other changes in my life.

TARA
I trust you. I just... I don't know where I'm gonna fit in. In your life, when --

WILLOW
When I 'change back'? Yeah, this is just a college thing, just a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?

She is pretty confrontational here. Even Tara is surprised that she meets it halfway:

TARA
Should I?

Beat. Bitter.

WILLOW
You know, I'm really sorry I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. But you're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so how on earth could you possibly take me seriously?

---

I'd say that makes it pretty clear how Willow feels about herself.

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited May 27, 2001).]

[Warduke]

posted 05-27-2001 01:06 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Him:
>>About my thoughts on what Willow's sexuality is, I'm basing it on what the writers went out of their way to show us

---

And that's exactly why I say that Willow is gay, because of what the writers have been going out of their way to show us since Triangle.

[Hugin]

posted 05-27-2001 01:09 EST (US)
Except, the writers have gone out of thier way to have Willow say she's gay, not bi. Not juts once, but several times now. The only guy Willow mentioned thinking was attractive was Drac.

The problem is, Drac had the whole compelling thrall thing. That was his character's "schtick" as t were. It ensnared Buffy, even though she tried to fight it and deny it. It ensnared Xander, even though Xander hates vampires. Willow reacted more mildly to it than either of them...I just don't see what this "Bi door" they're "leaving open" is, in light of Willow's repeated statements to the contrary, and especially the fight scene.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited May 27, 2001).]

[Dr.G]

posted 05-27-2001 02:00 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Him:

About my thoughts on what Willow's sexuality is, I'm basing it on what the writers went out of their way to show us. I WANT TO SEE THAT FIGHT SCENE AHHH!!! ...I'm back. Anyway, it seems they may be leaving that bi door open just in case Amber gets a movie career and leaves the show, who knows? Gay or Bi, she's still the best. w00t!

---

They went out of their way to show that she is gay, not that you'd have to go out of your way to see that. Unless you *want* her to be bi that is.

Oh yeah she is the best, as is Tara, they are perfect together. And that is how they will stay. Sorry boys.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited May 27, 2001).]

[Kabuki]

posted 05-27-2001 02:06 EST (US)
If Willow says she's gay, she's gay, in my opinion. Where it gets murkier is, is season 2 Willow gay? Was she not attracted to and in love with Xander and Oz? Basically I feel that "gay" and "straight" are just labels we put on people at given times, or that we decide to apply to ourselves based on how we feel.. so, Willow was straight, and now she's gay. She realized she would be more fulfilled, or whatever, with women, as opposed to just being with Tara for the moment. It seemed at first that would be the situation, but it's become clear that Willow's staying on the girls side.

The Dracula thing was more of a reflection on his magical sex appeal and all that. I don't think that was supposed to represent any continued attraction for men on Willow's part. If it was, they would probably have showed him putting Willow in full thrall like he did with Buffy.

[Prairiegirl]

posted 05-27-2001 02:09 EST (US)
Folks here have hit on one of the great debates in the Lesbian Nation, namely who is and who isn't gay (hard to have a nation when you can't figure out who your citizens are). The short answer is that there is no one answer that group has agreed on.

Some people believe that people have an orientation spectrum that can be graphed out. Say that maybe you are 50%/50% attracted to men and women. Maybe you would be considered bi. You may be 95% attracted to women and 5% attracted to men and be considered a lesbian. That isn't to preclude you from having a relationship with a man (that 5%) but that your orientation is as a lesbian. Oz could have been a 50% or a 5% category.

Other people would argue that such terms cannot be applied across your whole life. Gay or straight are terms of the moment. Willow was straight but is now gay and the future is unknown.

Still others would say that people have a firm orientation and that some are straight, some are gay, and some have double the chances for a date on Saturday night. It does take time to sort out what one's actual orientation is however, and may have a period of experimentation before sorting things out. It could be that Willow dated Oz before she realized she was gay but now that she has realized she is gay, is done with her experimentation.

If Willow were an actual person I knew, I would not presume she believes any one of the alternatives I outlined above. I would assume whatever she told me. If she said gay, I would see her as gay. If she told me something different later, I would believe that also. For my real life, it is too hard to question people on exactly what they mean. I just accept what they tell me and Willow has been abundently clear in my mind.

I don't think finding Dracula attractive means that Willow isn't gay. After being involved with women for 20 years, I still do notice men who are attractive. For me, there is a difference between finding them attractive (I mean, I'm not dead here!) and wanting to have a relationship with them, however.

[Shaniezak]

posted 05-27-2001 04:01 EST (US)
My thoughts:

Labels are confining, silly, and mostly irrelevant. I hesitate to put labels on anyone else; it makes me feel judgmental. Technically from what we've seen of Willow's relationship history, one might be tempted to call her bi, but I happen to fall into that "dated a guy or two once and it was nice, but decided it really wasn't my thing" category myself. Were I to label myself, I don't think it would be as bi. So I wouldn't assume to impose that term upon her, either.

But anyway, the defining of Willow's sexuality is something I'd leave entirely up to Willow herself. If she says she's gay, then I'll work with that.

------------------
"Willow? I got so lost . . ."
"I found you. I will always find you."
-- Tara and Willow, "The Gift"

"Even in death, Gabrielle . . . I will never leave you."
-- Xena, "One Against An Army"

[Ginner]

posted 05-27-2001 06:57 EST (US)
Okay here's my POV, but bewarned, i have just got up and this will probably make no sense at all.

I'm going to also agree with the people who say that Willow is gay because she said it herself plush we have quite a few examples of stuff that the writers have put in to make us realise that Will is gay and not bi.

For example;

Willow: Hello, gay now! Triangle

TARA: I just hope she finds him.
XANDER: Somehow I don't think a girl that looks like that's gonna be lonely for too long.
WILLOW: Definitely not.

Willow grins and nods, then notices Tara, who frowns and folds her arms. IWMTLY

Will making a pass at another girl.

And then there's Forever, (this ain't a biggie but i kinda think it counts) and the "little boobs" line.

I think the thing with Drac was just pure and simple Thrall.

Just my opinion though

[This message has been edited by Ginner (edited May 27, 2001).]

[Shewolf]

posted 05-27-2001 07:11 EST (US)
Bearing in mind that I probably don't know what I'm talking about, I don't think Willow's reactions to Dracula or Xander have any definite significance on her sexuality.
I mean, Xander was her first childhood love, of course she's going to have a special part in her heart for him. And Dracula,well, he had the whole mystic magnetism thing, so I think they showed all women in the show attracted to him because that attraction didn't make sense, it transcended reason or sexula orientation.Also, beeing attracted to someone doesn't define you.For instance, even though I consider myself straight, I've had crushes on women, notably Willow, and I don't ususally analyze those crushes.It's all about being able to appreciate a person's attractiveness or charisma, without necessarily wanting to jump their bones.
In an ideal world there wouldn't be labels like gay, straight, bi, and people would just fall in love-or lust- with the person.

[EarthlyGoddess]

posted 05-27-2001 07:21 EST (US)
And what have we learnt today children, all together now... That lables are limiting.

------------------
"Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true."

[Thespia]

posted 05-27-2001 07:29 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shewolf:
In an ideal world there wouldn't be labels like gay, straight, bi, and people would just fall in love-or lust- with the person.

---

I couldn't agree more. And I think that in that scene from Tough Love, Willow is saying exactly that. It doesn't matter the label. She's in love with Tara. She doesn't need a "lesbo street cred" to prove she's in love with a (wonderful and beautiful) woman. She knows she is. When we're in love, we shouldn't have to worry about labels.

[Ginner]

posted 05-27-2001 07:32 EST (US)
*Takes in what Thespia has just said and begins to cry*

That was *sob* beautiful *sob* ...and i couldn't *sob* agree *sob* more *sob* *sniff*

[tarasfan]

posted 05-27-2001 07:35 EST (US)
Well,I always seem to come in on these things so late! I think that it really is best not to put labels on stuff, especially people. Speaking from personal experience I think that it takes a long time to decide whether you want to give yourself the label, to make the firm judgement on your sexuality and thats if you ever do. As far as I see it, Willow has been able to make that decision for herself which is something I hope I can do someday, cos its a pretty scary thing to contemplate. I think I'm getting a bit too deep here but I think I've made my point!

xoxo

[Thespia]

posted 05-27-2001 07:53 EST (US)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ginner:
*Takes in what Thespia has just said and begins to cry*

That was *sob* beautiful *sob* ...and i couldn't *sob* agree *sob* more *sob* *sniff*

---

*Hurries to get a kleenex, fast*

Oh, Ginner, don't cry...

[Puff]

posted 05-27-2001 09:18 EST (US)
Labels are not a good thing, but then I would go with Xita here and anyone else that said it. That Willow is gay. She has said it and she is the only one who knows how she feels. And I think the fight in Tough Love just underlined her feelings to everyone else.

[Papaya]

posted 05-27-2001 09:23 EST (US)
I don't want to label Willow but I also think she is gay.

[Ginner]

posted 05-27-2001 09:25 EST (US)
*At Puff's mention of Tough Love she brakes down and starts crying again*

Someone tell me it'll be okay...i can't wait another *sob* week *sob to see The Gift *sob*...Thespia...can i have *sob* another *sob* kleenex? *sob*

[WOLFB8]

posted 05-27-2001 11:29 EST (US)
It's the person not what sex they are that matters, and I think Willow's a good example of that. Yes she loved OZ, and Yes she loves Tara now and if it weren't for some societal need to put people into categories then Willow wouldn't have had to say she was gay several times. I'm sure soon enough someone will complain about that too saying that since she's a woman she has to be a Lesbian not gay cause gay only applies to men. Well see once again that's trying to put people into one group just so they can feel better.
Love doesn't know boundaries, it's more of a spiritual thing and if someone connects with you on that level then who cares if they're a guy or a girl.

------------------
She practically had "Genuine Molded Plastic" stamped on her ass.
Just tryin' a little spicy-talk.

Tara from "I Was Made To Love You"

[Nic C]

posted 05-27-2001 11:42 EST (US)
For what it's worth, as far as I'm concerned no-one knows Willow better than herself (or the writers). So unless/until she says otherwise, she's gay now.

I believe that Joss didn't really want to label her, initially, but felt that he had to in order to answer those who declaimed W/T as nothing more than experimentation. Anyone know anymore on this?

Oh, and I don't think I've ever admired Tara more than when she said, "Should I?" It would have been so much easier for her to back down, or to simply mumble something noncommittal, but came out and said it (pretty forcefully, too). She was brave enough to express her fear - however misguided (though natural and understandable) the fear was. Thus proving she doesn't just let Willow take the lead all the time. She's her own person, with her own issues and insecurities and needs.

Not sure if that makes any sense to anyone, and aware that I've rambled off the point rather, but that's what I think

Nic