General Season 6 Spoilers - Part 10

[CPS Boy]

Kitty K: As a huge DS9 fan, I just have to point out that Kira's Mirror Universe self was aggressively bisexual.... and Ezri saved the day for the good guys in the end.

Just to defend some of my favorites....

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The good fight, aye?

[Wiccagrrl]

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
For that reason, I have this sinking feeling that none of us - myself included - have managed to figure out what the Buffy crew is up to yet. I think what they're going to throw at us is something we haven't anticipated yet.

And doesn't that sound like a wacky barrel of fun?

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Oh, now there's a comforting thought, Bob

As for the title "Against our Will"...I'm thinkin' (and kinda hoping) that it's not an accurate title. Of course, my first thought was that, if it is, it probably doesn't bode well for Willow (Will) or Spike (William)

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited March 19, 2002).]quote:

[Ghostwriter]

The theme for this season has been "growing up" but isn't a major part of growing up accepting the consequences of your actions? I don't think any of the Scoobies have accepted the consequences yet. Willow quit magic because that was what Tara wanted and she wanted Tara back, but she hasn't apologized really to anyone about TR or the other incidents. Xander hasn't faced why he left Anya at the alter. And none of them have really faced the consequences of bringing Buffy back. In light of this, I am not sure how a "reset" or a reversal will benefit them and help them "grow up". There is more we are not seeing obviously. But I sure hope there is some way this ends "right"

[Scout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kendahl897:
I tend to disagree a little with Scout. I think Willow has come along way this season, and I think she knows what she did to Tara was wrong. Willow knows she has a problem ( remember when she told Sam that she was an addict) and she knows there are consequences to giving into that addiction ( remember her refusal to do a spell at Anya's insistence, saying that if she started she might not be able to stop).But the main reason she fought that addiction was because her love for Tara was stronger. She knew that in order to win back Taras' love, that addiction was something she had to overcome. She had to choose between Tara or the magic. And she cose Tara.
I think Xita nailed it right on the head when she said that in essence, Willow is on a suicide run after Tara's death. The one thing that gave her the strength and courage to get clean is suddenly ripped from her in a violent and cruel manner. Once that happens, she doesn't care what happens to herself, she just wants Warren to pay. She is too overcome with rage and grief. She may not totally realize what's going to happen once she allows the magic to overtake her, though she no doubt realizes it will lead to her death.
I think one thing this storyline does show us is that Wilow needs Tara. She needs her love, her strength and her guidance. Tara is her anchor.........

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I agree that Willow is on a suicide run and I think she knows where the magick abuse will lead her, but she still has a morality problem and I still believe that this ending is about more than Willow just running herself into the ground over love.

As for Willow admitting her addiction and refusing to perform spells, that goes back to my lesson one: that Willow has realized that she has a problem with magick. But it doesn’t address the issue that, when pushed, Willow is still trying to impose her will on those around her. And Tara will not always be there to keep Willow on the right path. As soon as Tara disappears from the scene, chaos ensues. I’m not sure that using someone else as a crutch is a healthy or mature approach to addiction. Willow has to be able to control the power even if Tara is not around to inspire her.

quote:

[kpmuse]

quoteriginally posted by bzengo:
So, I'm making a specific request for television examples, and especially regular series network televison examples of lesbians being turned evil and/or killed.
___________________________________________

On Dark Angel, Original Cindy's girlfriend died just as the two of them were getting back together.

[Ghostwriter]

Scout, you are right. In OaFA Tara tells Willow that it is time to "walk without the net" I never thought she was talking about the spell supplies, I always felt she was talking about herself. If Willow goes all revenge ( as the spoilers say) she has proved she hasn't really learned anything

[d_moonshadow]

Hey..just came from the Internet Movie Database (http://us.imdb.com) and noticed on the Buffy page Amber is listed as playing the character Tara Maclay from 1999-2002. All other current characters do not have an ending date. I don't know how accurate this info is because I've never verified anything like this with the Database before, but it's interesting that this info is there. Who knows...it could be conjecture based on the many, many different contract rumours going around, and I've also heard that the Database is mainly run by fan contributions, so... Just thought I'd share.

Link to Amber's filmography: http://us.imdb.com/Name?Benson,+Amber

Meow
Steve

[This message has been edited by d_moonshadow (edited March 19, 2002).]

[Peapod]

I haven't been reading the posts for a while cause I destroying what is left of my brain. But is there any new and happy news about W/T?

[Karzia]

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
The problem I'm having with all the spoilers for the end of the season - the real ones as well as the fake ones - is that they have Buffy doing very, very little. The show is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and yet here we are talking about Willow going berserk and Anya being a vengeance demon and Spike going to Africa, and... [b]where's Buffy?

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Bob, this is an excelant point. In the realm of the magic reset, could the thing that Buffy gets to do is go back, back to before she came back wrong?....
Granted this would mean no season of learning Lessons for at least Buffy..... hummmm I can't make it work out in my head yet, but still a really good point.

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"As God as my witness I thought Turkeys could fly." L.Nesman, WKRPquote:

[EffieBlue]

examples of Lesbians .. dying/turning bad etc on regular tv....
In brookside (soap UK) Beth..happy with her sexuality has to run from the police after killing her father who abused her as a child..gets caught..makes impassioned plea for justice at her trial....convicted..dies in prison of previously un heard of heart defect...

Emerdale uk soap...really nice happy lesbian vet Zoe loses in love..turns into a drunk..convicted of drink driving..gets drunk makes pass at straight ex police woman in the village pub...result total humiliation in front of the village.

Holby city hospital drama UK...excellent lesbian surgeon Tash..very happy at being gay...good at her job...till we meet her previously unseen partner..who turns out to be a heroin addict..Tash jabs herself on a used needle....Partner confesses she is also HIV+ and Tash hands in resignation.

The history of lesbians on British tv is awful which is why it has been so refreshing to see willow and tara..it would be just sooo cruel (but in keeping with what we are used to ) for Tara to die.

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ghostwriter:
The theme for this season has been "growing up" but isn't a major part of growing up accepting the consequences of your actions? I don't think any of the Scoobies have accepted the consequences yet.

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I'm having major trouble with the whole "growing up" idea, really. It looks a heck of a lot more like "sink or swim" to me. None of the Scoobies were even 21 yet when the season started (except Anya, but I'm not sure how many of her years count), and yet they were tossed into the very deep end of the pool and forced to fend for themselves. Is it any wonder that they're having a meltdown?

A few other people have commented that the balance is gone from this season of Buffy - there used to be a balance of joy and pain, but now there is only pain. I would say the balance between youth and experience is gone, too. Everyone who is a grown up has been taken away - first Joyce last season, then Giles and now Tara.

Is there a point to it all? I don't know any more. I think that's why I'm clinging to as hackneyed a plot device as the reset button scenario. Yeah, it makes the season pointless, but what's the point of this season anyway?

Don't mind me... I think I'm just catching some of the bitterness bug that's going around. quote:

[sassyeggs]

It occured to me tonight while watching Tabula Rasa that a reset spell could still allow them to remember what happened. After the crystal is smashed in Tabula Rasa, they know that their memories were gone. So, a reset spell could still give them the growth and consequences necessary. Also, as far as imdb.com, they used to have Tara as a character from 1999-2000, too, so don't let that scare you. Yet. Sigh. I'm going to go sit in a dark corner until Episode 19 now. Valium, anyone?

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This is a dumb world. In my world there are people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies.

[Wiccagrrl]

A few other people have commented that the balance is gone from this season of Buffy - there used to be a balance of joy and pain, but now there is only pain.

***coughMarticough***

[The Big I-T]

quote:

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Originally posted by d_moonshadow:
Hey..just came from the Internet Movie Database (http://us.imdb.com) and noticed on the Buffy page Amber is listed as playing the character Tara Maclay from 1999-2002. All other current characters do not have an ending date.

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I wouldn't be surprised if this has more to do with the fact that Amber's contract --at least to this point -- has been season-to-season for a minimum number of episodes. Until she's signed anew on the dotted line, technically they can't list her for anything beyond the current year, Season 6. The others, we know from past contract information, are all signed through the end of Season 7.

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
A few other people have commented that the balance is gone from this season of Buffy - there used to be a balance of joy and pain, but now there is only pain.

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No doubt, Bob...and what I wouldn't give for a patented Tarajoke right about now...

--jr

[This message has been edited by The Big I-T (edited March 19, 2002).]quote:quote:

[Ghostwriter]

BBOvenGuy, your posts throughout this thread have been very interesting and have given me a lot to think about. I have to admit I too am teetering very close to that edge myself. Sometimes I wonder if I am cynical because it is my nature or because of the cliches that we have been forced to watch, but that topic has been covered pretty thoroughly. I too hope for some kind of reset and something the Paryman said made sense, about using the Trioka's time device. Which has me thinking, the have set up Jonathan's unease with how things are going, I know he is to be arrested but does he stay in jail? Could he have a role to play in this reset? Something to ponder of course

[Kendahl897]

Scout, I hear what you're saying. I guess I just don't agree 100%, not to say I disagree with everything.
I guess we're going to just have to wait and see how this thing plays out. I myself, tend to think that there will be some kind of a reset button. And not just because of Willow. Alot of the other characters seem to be going off of the deep end too. Anya and Spike. It's like Joss is taking them all to the depths of hell. Hopefully he's doing it with the intention of giving them a second chance though. Maybe next season we'll get to see Willow continue to try and grow, but with Tara beside her. Maybe Joss is showing us that growing up is a lifelong process. I don't know. I guess we'll find out in May....

[sassyeggs]

I think you've got something there. Jonathan could regret helping Warren and reset everything, without endangering Anya's cast-hood. He'd be the only one a: capable of magic that wasn't crazy and/or dead and/or tied to a charm that could kill them.

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This is a dumb world. In my world there are people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies.

[SciFiAcid]

quote:

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Originally posted by d_moonshadow:
Hey..just came from the Internet Movie Database (http://us.imdb.com)...

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Yeah, I wouldn't be concerned what IMDB has up. I know that they originally had James' real birth year, only someone changed it and now everyone thinks he's 10 years younger than he actually is... snigger. I'm sure, as you said, someone just submitted that.

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"Oh, man. I wish I WAS a lesbian. I would get laid every night for the rest of my life." ~ Amber Benson, Loveline 3/14/02quote:

[Willowhand]

quote:

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Originally posted by AutumnT:

And can I just say that "Against Our Will" creeps me the hell out. I. don't. like. that. title.

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Oh, God...I don't like that either.

quote:

[Ghostwriter]

quote:

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Originally posted by sassyeggs:
I think you've got something there. Jonathan could regret helping Warren and reset everything, without endangering Anya's cast-hood. He'd be the only one a: capable of magic that wasn't crazy and/or dead and/or tied to a charm that could kill them.

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Exactly, they have made an effort to show that he is upset about the direction the Trioka is going and in Normal Again, Warren and the other one (I forgot his name) obviously don't completely trust him anymore. So of there was a "reset" I think he could have something to do with it. It would make sense. But as someone else pointed out, where is Buffy in all of this??

quote:

[sassyeggs]

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised to see Buffy doing more of her own footwork in solving what's going on. With Willow all crazy, Tara all dead (temporarily, God/Joss willing), Anya all vengeancey, and Xander all forelorn. It could teach her to rely on herself more. She could maybe even get Jonathan to reverse everything. That could be her save the day thing.

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This is a dumb world. In my world there are people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies.

[Warbird]

quote:

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Originally posted by d_moonshadow:
Hey..just came from the Internet Movie Database (http://us.imdb.com) and noticed on the Buffy page Amber is listed as playing the character Tara Maclay from 1999-2002.

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That has nothing to do with anything. When she wasn't around for Gone and Doublemeat Palace they had her listed as being on the show from 1999-2001, then when she was in Dead Things they had her down simply as 1999- , so don't read anything into itquote:

[The Partyman]

I'm sceptical about these two "new titles":

"Against Our Will" sounds like clever fanfic, based on the spoilers of Willow needeing to be 'stopped', and "Catastrophic Impact" is nowhere near a plausible Buffy title.

The Big I T I'm glad you liked my speculation on a simple solution, and thank you for expanding further on the validity of the theory.

greep I too noticed the evil lesbian cliche in 24 the other night.

brick 66 events happening twice this seson - well spotted, although you seem to be reaching with some of the examples.

BBOvenGuy I think you made a really important point earlier. the show is all about Buffy, so where is she in all this?

[42olives]

quote:

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Originally posted by bzengo:
On a private list, I've been asked to provide specific television (not film) examples of the evil lesbian cliche.

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Babylon 5, has a twist on the dead/evil lesbian plot.

In the episode Divided Loyalties: Lt. Commander Susan Ivanova (Claudia Christian) and the space-station's resident telepath Talia Winters (Andrea Thompson) spend much of Season 2 becoming close (and oozing lesbian subtext). In this episode, it is implied that they finally sleep together. Talia wakes in Susans bed.

Later in the episode, Talia is unmasked as having an alternate personality, "Control". "Control" is a telepathic mole sent by the evil Psi Corps to ingratiate herself with Ivanova and infiltrate Babylon 5.

While the body of Talia Winters survives this episode, the personality does not. After a scene in which "Control" taunts Ivanova about her betrayal; "Control" is turned back over to the evil Psi Corps. Now that she has been unmasked, it is unclear if Psi Corps will allow "Control" to live; we never see her again.

In a later episode Susan confesses to Delenn that she loved Talia.

For a fuller description of the episode, including the producer J. Michael Straczynski answering the question: Was a kiss between Ivanova and Talia edited out?, check The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5.

[This message has been edited by 42olives (edited March 19, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by 42olives (edited March 19, 2002).]quote:

[Kamil]

quote:

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Originally posted by sassyeggs:
I think you've got something there. Jonathan could regret helping Warren and reset everything, without endangering Anya's cast-hood. He'd be the only one a: capable of magic that wasn't crazy and/or dead and/or tied to a charm that could kill them.

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I've been wondering about Jonathan's fate for a while now. I remember way back when, before the season started, I think, reading Herc's spoilers, and he mentioned that this year's story would include a BSD that didn't get taken back like Buffy's did.

Later he clarified that when he said it was a Scooby that died he meant it in the sense of 'once a Scoob, always a Scoob' -- and there's lots of those type folks running around somewhere.

Which led to much speculation that the BSD could be anyone from Oz to Faith to Jonathan...remember, he was a Scooby (their leader in fact), in the Superstar-verse.

And then the season started, and things moved on, and I found AngelX's site and quit reading Herc's. :-) But now, Jonathan is starting to seem, to me, more and more like he might be the real death. If he dies reversing the actions of the rest of the Troika then it would both redeem his character -- and face it, this is an awfully dark road Joss has taken the once likable little dweeb down -- and it would mean that Jonathan had grown up enough to understand that his actions, no matter how innocently intended, have consequences, consequences that he himself has to repair no matter the cost.

Jonathan's been down with the mojo for a while now -- and maybe, just maybe, there's a better resurrection spell out there, one that the Scoobs didn't use with Buffy because this one requires something of equal value from the spellcaster; ie, a human life for a human life. None of the Scoobs would've considered that spell -- the others, quite rightly, wouldn't've allowed it.

This would leave everyone with their memories intact -- and would probably occur right before Willow goes poof -- Jonathan would understand the danger to Will, and that might prove to be the proverbial last straw.

I imagine Buffy will be able to handle whatever personal danger she's in at the time; a large part of her growing experience will be when she starts actively reengaging with life and embraces her future as the Slayer -- something she's never been comfortable with. Remember way back when in "What's My Line" when Kendra admonished Buffy about her attitude about being a Slayer: "Being the Slayer isn't a job; it who you are." I think it's time the Buffster acknowledges that.

As far as Xanya goes -- another spoiler Herc had at the time was that Xander was going to get cold feet the day of the wedding and Anya was going to return to Anyaka for a while and attempt to curse Xander -- but at the last minute she'd realize she loved her little butt-monkey too much and wouldn't go through with it.

So that would leave Buffy dealing with her and Dawn's arc -- I think the S*ike arc is going to be left hanging for resolution next season -- and the only reset (although it's not a reset in the terms that we've been using it) used would be Jonathan magicking Tara back to life, at the cost of his own.

So everyone keeps their memories, they all learn whatever lesson they need to from this descent into chaos, we have our BSD -- and it doesn't even hurt -- much.

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Kamil
--
I feel like Spike explaining the Ben/Glory connection. It's just like people to assume a story is over just because the hero is rotting in her grave. Sheesh.
Joss Whedonquote:

[Morphine]

Would it be possible that this year, Buffy is not the hero in the end? Let's recap :

Episode 1 & 2 : No bad guys
Episode 3 : Bad ghost unstoppable without magick
Episode 4 : Buffy killed the demon
Episode 5 : No "serious" bad guys
Episode 6 : Dawn killed the bad guy
Episode 7 : Bad guy left (!) by himself (possibly in fear of Willow's "power")
Episode 8 : No "serious" bad guys
Episode 9 & 10 : No bad guys
Episode 11 : The bad guys left (and what an exit that was)
Episode 12 : Willow killed the granny
Episode 13 : Bad guys never caught
Episode 14 : Buffy killed the bad guy (a tad late, though, Halfrek had been hit already, but it could have been anyone)
Episode 15 : No bad guys, if not the squishy thingy, whom Sam and Riley overcame more than Buffy
Episode 16 : Xander killed the bad guy
Episode 17 : That one could be argued as "Buffy was the bad guy" or "Buffy finally ended up killing the bad guys"

That makes a maximum of 3 episodes in which Buffy actively defended her role as the Slayer and protected either her friends or Sunnydale.

There was a theory around that Season 5, 6 and 7 were just one season wrapped into one. If that theory was correct, it would make sense that Buffy isn't the hero. Like in all Buffy stories before this season : Everything's alright.
Buffy sees an enemy.
Buffy fights and loses (Glory, Adam, Master, Mayor, even Angelus).
The Gang finds a clever solution while Buffy patrols and goes for snacks.
Buffy puts in action said solution and wins.

It seems we've been stuck in the "Scooby Gang works on a solution (and has many misses) while Buffy stalls" for a whole season now.

That could explain the lack of Buffy action this year. She's a fighter, not big on the solving problems department.

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Tara: No, see, 'cause your insect reflection represents your insignificance... in terms of the karmic cycle.

[Genea]

Pardon Me, but whats a BSD??

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Sugarloaf
Well, dip me in chocolate and throw me to the lesbians!!

[Ari]

quote:

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Originally posted by Scout:
Taking into account your analysis and assuming that Ed’s spoilers are moderately accurate, it seems like you’re saying that Willow has learned only two of her three lessons this season: 1) she’s learned that she does not possess the self-discipline to simply dabble in magick and 2) she’s learned that Tara can love her without the magick. But the one lesson she hasn’t learned is that it’s wrong to shape things to your liking just because you can – in other words, she’s still lacking the moral compass that Tara already possesses.
(snip)
But now we come to the part I don’t understand: how does imploding over Tara and turning into a killer give Willow the morality she’s lacking? How does being consumed by rage and dark magicks lead Willow to understand why she can’t do whatever the hell she pleases with her abilities?

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Well, actually I think the answer might be that in the end it really doesn't. Not what you wanted to hear, right?

Part of this premise (or the one I'm playing with, anyway) is that the things they are doing go against the lessons they've already been learning this season.

For example, Buffy already knows she needs to take responsiblity for herself and for Dawn and not just pass anything off to Giles that she can't handle. That's been one of the lessons she's been working on all season. And yet she does it anyway. Does that mean she hasn't been learning the lesson? I don't think so. I think it means that she's still in the learning process and given an extreme enough situation falls immediately back on her very worst instincts and habits, despite all the learning and growth she's be working so hard for.

It'd be a shame to think walking around with that burger smell all this time was for nothing.

And what I see for Willow is basically the same. She knows what she's doing is wrong. She knows after what happened with Buffy that she shouldn't be trying to ressurect anyone, let alone possibly pulling Tara out of Heaven. And she knows because of Sam that the power will destroy her. She knows that she will probably get out of control and hurt people, that's why she was afraid to even try to cast in OAFA. Those are the lessons she's already working on. But given the right (or wrong) situation, she just doesn't care anymore. It's not about a rational decision or mistake, it's about being pushed too far, at just the wrong moment, and simply getting broken.

What's the purpose of it? I think in part it's just Joss' love for tragedy and his taking the chance of having the safety net of a reset to take everyone as far and deep and dark as he can dream up in that twisted little mind of his. And in the process, he's showing us just how far down these people have fallen this season. How close they all are to falling down so far that they couldn't ever get back up again.

And I'm hoping that the purpose of that would then be to show them growing next season. If we as the audience know just how close each of them was to being completely undone, then growing and learning and moving forward becomes that much more meaningful. Because if you've shown the lowest of the lows, then hopefully there would be nowhere to go but upward.

Or that's the theory I'm clinging desperately to at the moment.

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited March 19, 2002).]quote:

[with catlike tread]

as to the lesbian cliche thing, I can't add any examples but this site has a list of gay characters on TV from 1997, which might help you jog a memory or two. I haven't seen enough of TV to know what happened to the characters (plus more recent TV seems to have progressed somewhat from the 1980/early 90s stuff so there may not be that many examples)

anyway, FWIW:
http://www.glaad.org/org/projects/tv/index.html

edited to add: this is a more comprehensive list
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~wyatt/tv-characters.html

[This message has been edited by with catlike tread (edited March 19, 2002).]

[The Partyman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Genea:
Pardon Me, but whats a BSD??

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"Big Scooby Death"

quote: