Discussion - S6E9 - "Smashed"

[BBOvenGuy]

We've seen this before.

Buffy and Willow, moving in parallel.

Season 2 - Buffy loses her virginity, and Angel promptly turns evil, shattering all the fairy-tale expectations she had about what being with him would be like. At the same time, Willow loses her innocence, in the figurative sense, when she discovers that Xander would rather be with someone he hates than be with her.

Season 3 - Buffy (thanks to some help from Spike) realizes she can't be "just friends" with Angel and walks away from him. In the same episode, Oz catches Willow with Xander and walks away from her. A few episodes later, Buffy and Angel have it out and become a couple again. In the same episode, Willow and Oz become a couple again. Later that year, Buffy and Willow both realize that their destinies lie in Sunnydale - again, in the same episode.

Season 4 - We get the infamous Buffy/Riley porno in "The I in Team," and in the very same episode Willow spends her first night with Tara. Regardless of how much or how little Willow and Tara did that night (a question that will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction), both Buffy and Willow hit major turning points in their respective relationships at the same time.

Season 5 - Buffy and Willow learn about "tough love" in the same episode, and finish the episode telling each other about the difficult commitments they have to make for the sake of the people they love.

And so now we have Season 6, and tonight Willow continued her downward spiral, aided and abetted by someone with the same kind of addictive behavior. Willow has turned her back on everything solid in her life, because she doesn't want to deal with the pain. Instead she's going out looking for the next big thrill. It's only going to get her into trouble.

Meanwhile, Buffy had sex with Spike.

So do I think Buffy and Spike getting together is a good thing? Not on your life. Tell me it is, and I'll tell you that history says otherwise.

There's no love in the relationship. Spike may think he's in love with Buffy, but who really knows what a demon's interpretation of the concept is. Monday night Darla and Angel seemed to think vampires were incapable of love. Regardless of what Spike may or may not feel, though, Buffy most certainly doesn't love him. And some people say, "So what?" True, not everyone thinks sex is all about love and romance. Can anyone really say that's "bad?" Well, yes they can, but I'm not going to get into that question here. This isn't the time or the place. What I am saying is this - right or wrong, good or bad, this Buffy/Spike pairing is not going to end well. Not well at all.

Meanwhile... how great was Tara tonight? She's not the only grownup on the show (Anya is too, in a wacky neighbor sort of way), but she's certainly at the front of the pack. There was a definite change in her demeanor tonight. More solid than I've ever seen her, I think. Yes, she blurted out her whole spiel without the long buildup - but she didn't stutter during it. I feel like breaking away from Willow has given Tara a new sense of freedom and personhood. Willow may have brought Tara out of her lonely darkness into the light, but Willow wasn't the light herself. I think Tara's beginning to realize that now. This can only be good.

Oh, and by the way, it's not possible for any member of the nerd trio to have seen every episode of Doctor Who, because many of the episodes from the mid-60s have been lost. And I doubt all 26 seasons are on DVD anyway.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"...while i'm here, can I just echo what that other guy said? I think it went something like this: Amber Benson.... Amber Benson..." - Joss Whedon, November 6 2001

[judy]

quote:

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Originally posted by april:
judy, will you marry me?

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I'll marry you only if we can promise to love, dishonor, and disobey one another in sickness and in health, til safeword do we part.

And, I just spotted Dr. G whispering sweet nothings in my ear in the Amber in STUFF thread. SInce I am loathe to bump that thread and its turbulent debate to the top, I will reply here to your entreaty that I reinstall YM so you can "properly smooch me."

I'm all for exhibitionism and public displays of affection, honey. How bout one of those big red fonts?

OK, pardon the little digression in this thread.

I wanted to chime in and say that I agree that Tara was needed in this ep. I almost felt like she served Giles' role in some small way -- looking after Dawn, speaking quite wisely (and with evident pain) about the end of her relationship.

I also think the scene with Xander, Anya, and Buffy at the Magic Shoppe was really central to establishing a parallel between Buffy and Willow. Buffy is unable to comprehend that responsible Willow "of the level head" could possibly be in trouble (very typical reaction of friends of addicts). Anya and Xander actually see much more clearly the danger in Willow's misuse of magic -- how alluring it can be for someone who has been so invested in being good and getting approval. And when Xander talks about the seductiveness of getting into something powerful and bigger than you, Buffy's reactions make it clear that she is recognizing her own seduction to darkness in the form of Spike.

This reminded me of "Buffy vs. Dracula" which actually foreshadowed a lot of what transpired this season. (Giles considered leaving Sunnydale in that ep). Buffy's confusion over the root of her powers and predatory nature were explored in BvD. Do they stem from evil -- is the aggression that is part of the slayer's instincts necessarily dark; she may be channeling those predatory instincts for good but is she still actually a killer deep inside? As she wrestles with who she is now, after her death, after confronting the horrifying prospect that she might not be fully "human" I imagine those questions might haunt her even more.

EDITED TO ADD

Hmmm, I see that while I was composing this rambly and disjointed post Bob was waxing eloquent about B/W parallels as well! I like the history you gave.

[This message has been edited by judy (edited November 21, 2001).]quote:

[Lonewolf]

First off, I'm very scared for Willow, I absolutely HATE what Amy is doing to her, she is just feeding Willow's addiction more and more. I feel soooooo helpless, I wanna do something but I can't, why can't Willow realize that magic is killing her. I hope and pray to God that she will be OK eventually and I hope that she and Tara get back together real soon.

I hate the promos for next week.

Lonewolf

P.S. What is Joss doing to us? Can somebody please answer me that because I'm at a complete loss? This whole thing with Willow and Tara is driving me out of my mind.

[EvilAnya]

Judy, after reading what you had to say in the Stuff mag thread, i have to say mad props to you, you verbalized the thoughts i couldn't seem to articulate on that thread (yes, let it sink!)


I liked Tara in this episode, i was really glad to see a resolution between her and Dawn and it establishes for the viewer that just because W/T have split, that Tara isn't out of the picture. Also, it establishes Tara as a character who is not dependent on Willow and that she is an individual. Of course she's still in love, and she's hurt and sad, but she still knows that she has to go on living, she cares about Dawn and she could have shirked her responsibility to Dawn because of the pain of being in the Summers house, but she didn't. Tara is very wise, I only wish that willow could be more receptive to her widom right now.

[JJ]

Original statements first:

Thinking about the Lame Gunmen's travails makes me wonder if they'll end up creating by accident the "Big Bad" later on in the season, like Dr. What's-Her-Name in season 4. If my understanding serves me correct, Adam didn't fully materialize until after the midway point. Some here have noted the abscence of a "Big Bad", but maybe it'll show up later, maybe the evil, skanky-lookin' dude in the preview for 'Wrecked'.

Other small notes;
A) nice to see Tara getting some Dawnie love, the innocent kind that is.
B) Amy & Willow, oh dear. Was cool to see Amy try and get Willow a new, hot girlfriend; shows she cares (I sense some fanfic being banged out as we speak).
C) Buffy & Spike, double oh dear. I hope Joss and co. know what they're doing.

On your thoughts/rants:

quote:

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Originally posted by WiccanBex:
one minute she's pounding his head into a wall, and the next minute she's pounding his... nevermind...

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quote:

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Originally posted by GODisTigger:
As to the ending, where's that forget spell when you really need one?

Good GOD, that's alot of shake!

D

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You people are just too damn funny!

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonewolf:
What is Joss doing to us? Can somebody please answer me that because I'm at a complete loss? This whole thing with Willow and Tara is driving me out of my mind.

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Joss is just being his usual evil-genius self.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wiccagrrl:
...it's too bad that all the posting levels have been named, cause doesn't "Dark magick crack whore" just have the best ring to it...not to mention "Chocolate Lesbian Chunk Ice Cream" (See the Support thread)

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Goes running off to find the thread; but before I do repeat after me via Bob:

quote:

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Originally posted by BBOvenGuy:
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"
Remember the Kitten Board Mantra: "Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

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JJ, who wonders if it's OK to use Crack's Smiles anymore

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Amberholic #1969
Keeper of the kitten spirit that lies in us all
Keeper of the fluffy pink rhinos (don't ask)
The 100th Light for Tara
Bardlet #15 (thanx Angie)

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand."
from 'Witch Hunt' by Rushquote:quote:quote:quote:quote:

[Dr.G]

Judy as soon as you have reinstalled it, I shall big red font you in the worst way, or the best, depending on your point of view.

Can't add to the discussion really, as I have not and will not see this ep for a while. I am glad to know Tara was in it. I do not want her to just disappear like she did a few times last season, she is essential, no matter if she and Willow are *temporarily* apart, and may that temporarily be as brief as it can be.

[xita]

Big thoughts on this ep. Joss is the man even though he's putting me through hell.

Restless comes to mind now. Willow wanting so badly to just be good, "I am very seldom naughty." Anya is right.. willow was so busy being good that when she did something bad, she lost sight of right or wrong. Something in her brain said, you've done bad, you are bad. Ugh. And Tara can't help her with this.. how sad is that. Plus, the fear, the fear that everyone will think of her as just this geeky girl. Oh my poor Willow. Joss had this in mind for her long ago. And why do this to her? Cause Joss loves Willow and Aly and he wants her to shine... aly is an amazing actress.

But you know watching how big Aly is in this ep and the next I remember Joss saying he had something coming up for Aly that would put her in the spotlight for a long time to come. And today it was like the buffy and willow show. Their stories parallel and powerful, though Willow's is more devestating. Eventually though both will face the same problem. This way of dealing with pain and loss is not the right way of dealing with things. This will not bring them joy eventually. It's just feeling for feeling's sake. Buffy wants to feel something.. and Willow doesn't want to feel anything negative.

And I miss their friendship, I keep wondering if it would be different if they were able to talk to each other. If Buffy could have told Willow where she was. If Buffy could tell Willow she's doing wrong. If Willow had someone she could just talk to, someone she was sure wouldn't judge her, unfortunately Tara was too close to the situation. I thought that when Willow says it's nice to have a friend around (don't remember the exact line) I didn't just think of Tara, I thought of her best friend sitting right in front of her. Unfortunately, they haven't been friends since season 3. And they could really use each other right now.

And Tara, it was not useless. She has a role on this show. She's a grown up. Someone who is WILLING and able to take responsibility for someone else. Someone mentioned Willow's and Buffy's lesson in tough love. Where did that go? Did they both realize they weren't ready to take it on? Did the world beat it out of them? Poor Willow hasn't been able to handle the cummulative pain, joyce, tara, buffy. I mean really, could you?

Thank God Tara can, of course she may be a little more emotionally distanced. I mean she wasn't as close to the situation. Dawn is a kid, she needs to be safe but she also needs someone to make sure she eats something green .

I still feel sorry for the xander fans. Years they have been waiting for a story line. Unless he is the second act of a a 3 act play, I just don't see it. Buffy and Willow are on the edges of life experience and Xander is getting married. hmm...

The reporter, anyone in LA know which station he works for? I want to say 11. Anyway, no more KTLA folks on the show anymore. 11 is fox and not upn but fox does own buffy so working with ch. 11 may be like ok.

I am so worried. In all the scenarios that I pictured for the magic taking over Willow, addiction wasn't one. This is maybe a little too believable.

And w/t they still love each other. No doubt there. Willow is in too much denial to even realize Tara left, no problem.. says she. Buffy is in the same boat. She even refuses to see Willow's problem because that may mean seh would have to look at herself. Ok that's it for now.

[fell]

i agree with bob and judy about the buffy/willow parallels.

right now buffy may be doing the only thing she can to reconnect with her feelings. connecting to her dark side, which may be the source of her power, is better than being so disconnected she doesn't care to go on living.

i also don't see any kind of future for b/s for the reasons sited- it's clear that they are both physically attracted, and spike may actually love her, but in the end they're born enemies and down deep i'm sure buffy loathes him. so there's a strong element of denial at work here, just as there is with willow.

i was re-watching "something blue" and was struck by this exchange:
(after willow discovered oz's things are gone)

WILLOW
I just can't stand feeling this way.
I want it to be over.
BUFFY
And it will be. I promise. But it's going
to take some time.
WILLOW
That's not good enough.
BUFFY
I know. But that's how it is. You have
to go through the pain.
WILLOW
Isn't there some way I can make it
go away? Just 'cause I say so?
Can't I make it go poof?

this is so deja vu. it's exactly what willow is doing now, running from her feelings and wishing for an instant fix. that whole episode (something blue) is full of the most amazing bits of foreshadowing for "smashed,"
from willow's irresponsible use of magic to the buffy/spike romance.

[This message has been edited by fell (edited November 21, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by fell (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Dave V]

Bob, great analysis of the parallels between Buffy and Willow. The two characters seem to be the opposite sides of the same coin - one who deals with the world with her physical strength, the other with her mind, both fighting (and currently losing?) the good fight. It's interesting that the two most powerful characters (in a sheer kinetic energy kinda way) are most in need of growing up. They're like some war veterans that I have read about - I'm almost surprised that they're sane at all, after everything they've witnessed and been forced to do.

B/S: Spike, Spike Spike, she's just using you, she doesn't love you. And hey, does this mean that Buffy's part demon now?

Not counting out the tower of strength that is Tara, though. Her presence this episode was necessary. Absolutely. Not only is she the only one capable of being Dawn's parent, she's the only one making sure the parenting gets done. Scoobiedoo, you have a point. It doesn't look like EITHER Buffy or Willow will be home anytime soon. What kind of loving parent leaves their kid home alone all night like that? In Sunnydale?

RE: The Willow and Amy Magic show. They were changing people's bodies, making them levitate, controlling their minds. If they're going to spend the power, they could've been curing the crippled, actively trying to locate the Lame Gunmen(TM), hell, repairing Buffy's house. What a crying WASTE. And it's not enough for them. You could almost hear the "Bored now."

Tara still loves Willow, and Amber portrayed Tara's sad ruefulness well. Willow still loves Tara, but is a not-so-happy citizen of Denial-land: very well played by Aly. There's hope, but the tunnel is long.

[Hugin]

Judy, I don't have any problem with what two consenting adults like to do with each other sexually, and I'm not worried about Spike abusing Buffy physically. I have three problems with what happened between Buffy and Spike last night, my explanation will meantion the SM, but I hope I can be clear about where the problem starts for me, it's not intrinsic to SM per se:

1. I have a problem with one partner taking advantage of the psychological vulnerabilities of the other in order to get thier way...both Buffy and Spike said things to each other that I thought were manipulative and hurtful. They may have the bodies to get away with such rough physical action, but I honestly don't think they have the psyches, at least not right now, to handle such mental battering.

2. Buffy choosing to have sex with Spike at all makes me sad. To put it another way, if Buffy had decided, out of pain and lonliness, to seek out Parker for sex, I would be disappointed as well, and Parker is neither any sort of physical threat to her nor (more significantly) a murderer. I honestly would have felt better if Buffy had just gone to the Bronze and just found some random person to spend the night with to make the pain go away for while. For me, Spike is not a good or healthy or smart or worthy person for anyone to have sex with (well, maybe Dru, wherever she is) under any circumstances. Buffy having (hypohetically)completely sweet, tender sex with Xander would worry me the same way, Xander is not an appropriate sexual partner for Buffy, if she went to him, it would ring alarm bells.

3. Buffy has never struck me as being into SM. Now, maybe she is and we just haven't known. Or maybe she just discovered she was in the heat of the moment, that's valid. But my first interpretation is that the style of sex she's having with Spike is indicative of the weird place she's coming from, i.e. SM sex (with anyone) for Buffy,probably = Something wrong with Buffy. does that makes sense? It's not that Buffy can't choose to incorporate some SM into her sex, and it's not that SM is bad, it's that it's out of character (as I've seen it, in my opinion) for her, and therefore it worries me.

So, to sum up: Sex good. SM sex fine. Sex just to deal with psychological pain, understandable.

SM sex for Buffy...seemingly unusual and possibly worrisome. Sex in general with bad people...mistake.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Ange]

Ok, just a question?
For you, how many time passed between the end of "Tabula Rasa" and "Smashed"?

Because, it's seems short and long in the same time.

I mean, Willow feels so lonely at the begining and then Dawn talks about re-introducing Tara to the Scoobies.

I just wanted to know what you were thinking.

Ange.

[tyche]

Interesting post on the parallels between Willow and Buffy, Bob! What has made me go "hmmm" when reading about these eps is how much Buffy this season seems like Angel last season - trying to blot out everything by screwing someone senseless, but only descending further into darkness. Also, I think Buffy/Spike are kind of the equivalent of Angel/Darla: obsession and rough sex, but no real staying power and nasty, messy fallout.
Also, judy, I felt I had to say something on your comments. I am against B/S (and I find even the descriptions of the scene at the end of this ep deeply icky, so heaven knows how I'm actually going to watch it), but I have NO objections to S&M between consenting adults. I have no doubt that a lot of people on the S&M scene are fine, upstanding citizens, which is why I'm sure that none of them are 200-year old stalking, mass-murdering vampires.
If you've ever seen the film 'Fetishes', you might remember a scene featuring a black man who pays to enact a scenario where he's a slave being punished by the plantation owner. That was S&M between consenting adults, but I wouldn't exactly call it healthy. Same for B/S, though with the added caveat that I don't know whether, given Buffy's current mental state, she actually knows what she's doing, or she's doing something which she KNOWS will make her feel degraded in order to blot everything out.
In conclusion: Some S&M can be healthy, you just got to have boundaries and, I think, to be able to trust whoever you're doing it with. Which is why I don't think that someone who's been stalking you for two years and trying to kill your friends ever since you've known them is the best choice of partner for S&M sex sessions. Buffy is an adult, but I think she's so lost and traumatised at the moment (even SPIKE admitted that she's not right mentally, before happily taking advantage of this) that she doesn't really know what she IS anymore. And I don't think S&M shagging sessions with Spike are the magical solution. In fact, they may well make matters worse.
Again, I should emphasise that I'm not against S&M, just the way it was used in this ep.

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A vampire with a soul? How lame is *that*?"

[This message has been edited by tyche (edited November 21, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by tyche (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Hemiola]

OK, I have some questions...

1. Has anyone any idea why Willow's magic is "red" while Amy's is "green"?

2. What do you think of this idea--the reason why Spike's chip doesn't perceive Buffy as "human" is that it sees her as a "re-animated corpse" just like Spike?

3. Motivation for the B/S sexual relationship? I really don't understand it. Pure lust? Desire for connection with another "supernatural" creature? I have to agree with (I think it was) David Fury, who said that he saw no reason why Buffy would hook up with a "serial killer".

[editing to add a 4th question]

4. Tara mentioned the phrase "at home" to Dawn, but WHERE IS SHE STAYING???? At school?
In a motel? Somewhere else?

[This message has been edited by Hemiola (edited November 21, 2001).]

[darvangi]

This ep was good, but it had moments of out-of-character dialogue and action that made it feel a little off balance - as if the producers/writers of another tv show suddenly decided to make an episode of BTVS. But those off balance elements were mostly details, and the overall story of the ep was really intense and satisfying.

I love what's going on with Buffy and how much I can identify with her. Her death and resurrection seem to symbolize the change from adolescence into adulthood, and yet stepping into adulthood is so traumatic for her, she can't get a grasp on who she is, who she's supposed to be or even wants to be - thus the absence of true humanity as revealed by Spike's ability to hurt her. She is fumbling through her early adulthood in a way I can all too easily remember doing myself. And her quest to find 'something to sing about' continues (I used to complain about not 'having religion' about anything, but I like this phrase better). She needs a passion in her life, and passion is something she has not felt yet since being brought back. This affair with Spike is an easy, shallow first-step on the passion trail Hopefully she will take more careful steps soon.

I'm feeling oddly positive today, and since I have nothing GOOD to say about the Lame Gunmen and their annoyingly unsupernatural exploits, I will say nothing at all. Not a peep. sooooo laaaaame

How much do I love maternal Tara? As much as I loved maternal Joyce and paternal Giles. Yes, folks, Tara is not going anywhere - in tonight's ep, Joss just sent us a signal that she is our Joyce/Giles replacement. Thank you, big guy. She'll do just fine. Dawn is still young enough to need a parent to cling on to, and though Buffy may some day rise to the challenge as best she can, she will always be too busy and to preoccupied to give Dawn the attention and encouragement she needs - so this kind of help from Tara is very welcome.

Who was that guy in the Magic Box with Anya? I seem to remember him being in some scenes from seasons passed, but I can't be sure. He was kinda cute.

Willow's denial about her addiction and how it relates to the loss of Tara is heartbreaking to watch. I was very happy to see Amy come back, but boy is she exactly not what Willow needs right now. I'm happy that Willow was portrayed as gay without Tara by having the freaky offering of the random lesbian in the Bronze. That's at least a small upside to seeing her on her own (very small). Excited about the crackwhore Willow next week? You betcha! I hope it's as good as it looked in the preview.

[This message has been edited by darvangi (edited November 21, 2001).]sooooo laaaaame

[Wendy]

Can't... Stop ... Posting ... About .... S/B.... No really, I won't. I really hate it when a board with one purpose goes off topic.

But Bob, one thing: Joss himself said that Spike loves Buffy (in his shooting script for The Gift). Can't quote it exactly (at the 'rents for the holidays).

I don't have issues with disagreements over interpretation. But I don't think that the question of whether Spike loves Buffy is a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of *fact*.

ObligatoryOnTopic: Tara looked *amazing* in this ep! I love Maternal!Tara.

OK, no more S/B. If anyone wants to argue with me, post something at BC&S.

[glenda the good witch]

ok...s/m er in a committed relationship chiming in here....

Judy you rock! Great post and I agree with the media exploiting some aspects (fashion, women in Domme mode) while sending a negative message with other aspects (an s/m relationship etc).

The only thing BDSM related in regards to Buffy / Spike is that it's consensual rough sex...but to be completely honest there is really more power exchange/play going on than actual BDSM. In S and M "scenes" or a "relationship", it is usually established who is topping and who is bottoming...ie giving pain/receiving pain. Here, it is a constant power exchange. Neither one is really submitting to the other, nor is one in a more Dom/me position over the other...

In regards to the movie "fetishes", you can't say well one sm scene is ok, but that other thing is JUST PLAIN WRONG! BDSM revolves around safe, sane and consensual...your kink may be different than mine, I may not understand it but as long as it's consensual than ok I have been involved with some pretty incredible scenes that I'm sure looked pretty out there. But hey...I got off and my partner got off and we both had incredible fun so it's ALL GOOD

Judy was far more coherent than I, but I just wanted to add a bit.

I liked the ep but it wasn't the best. I miss Tara and I miss old willow. The previews for next week are pretty sad While I thought the B/S finale was hot, I couldn't enjoy it thoroughly because I fear that it will be just another morality message.

JeAnne

[christa monsta]

here's my list:

1. "and did you hear about tom and nicole??" holy crap...ROFL.

2.

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaniezak:
Y'know what, to me, was the most telling moment?

Amy's statement to Willow: "You'd rather sit here alone all night, like in high school."

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ooohhh...i agree! when amy said that, i was thinking, "peer pressure much"? this comment is totally playing on willow's insecurities right now...who knew amy could be so "evil"!

3. um...when i saw that girl (who looked like a freaking supermodel) come over to willow via amy's spell, i was like WHOA!!!! that girl is way too much woman for willow. hee hee!! i think willow was pretty much intimidated by her! of course, i'm glad she had the reaction she had...shows she's still got tara on the brain, and that she's not going to drown her sorrows in anonymous sex, or anything CRAZY like that (no...she'd rather magick herself to death...).

4. i'm completely unspoiled (FOREVER!), so that whole "crack whore" preview for next week looks out of control! it kind of reminds me of some of the later scenes from Traffic, with the teenage daughter. i'm with darin...bring it on!! i'm hoping tara will be around when the scoobs find out what willow's doing...should be good angsty fun!

5. i LOVE the picture of dawn's head on tara's shoulder. so cute!

that's it for me!

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"You can sleep with me!
Well now, that came out a lot more lesbian than it sounded in my head."

[This message has been edited by christa monsta (edited November 21, 2001).]quote:

[Hugin]

quote:

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Originally posted by glenda the good witch:

In regards to the movie "fetishes", you can't say well one sm scene is ok, but that other thing is JUST PLAIN WRONG! BDSM revolves around safe, sane and consensual...your kink may be different than mine, I may not understand it but as long as it's consensual than ok

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Howdy Glenda. The impression I got from Tyche's reference to "Fetishes" was more that it takes somewhat more than just consent to make a sexual act healthy.

You mentioned the classic watchwords: Safe, Sane and Consensual. Well, Buffy and Spike were safe (for the purposes of this discussion I think we can ignore birth control and disease prevention), and Bufy and Spike were consensual, but I'd argue as to whether they were "sane".

No, neither of them are babbling in an asylum, but on Spike's side (and yes Wendy, I do think he really does, by his lights, love her, though I don't think the reverse is true), I have to wonder about the line between love and unhealthy obsession. On Buffy's side...sigh, I just can't buy that her actions last night aren't a symptom of the massive psychological trauma we all acknowledge she's suffered. That's my beef. I'm really trying hard not to cast this as an indictment of consensual rough sex or BDSM or people who are into it.

-len

[This message has been edited by Hugin (edited November 21, 2001).]quote:

[Eyes Without A Face]

Ok. First of all. In Ottawa, the show now carries a warning of adult subject matter on top of the violence warning it had before. Good because all those who object to such stuff can put their kiddies to sleep or have them watch The Princess Bride (I like this movie btw) in another room. It is after all 8pm.

People keep talking about Willow being addicted to magic but it may be simply that magic is now natural for her. Maybe Buffy is not the only one that was changed by the resurrection spell. Willow did kill a deer and who knows what Osiris did to her during her trial before the spell was granted? We need to see if Spike can hit Willow because maybe she is now more (or less) than human as well. In that case, magic would not be as much an addiction as simply normal behaviour for whatever she is becoming. I am a lot more worried that she uses a Mac. No wonder she needs some magic to enhance that POS.

The spells at the Bronze, like the Lame Gunmen were good comic relief. The girl Amy chose for Willow is yecccchy skanky, not even cute.

As for Buffy and Spike, maybe that relationship is icky for some but, for me, I don't have any problem believing that Spike is really passionately in love (and lust) with Buffy. His progression through the last two years shows that this very love is changing him. He had to force himself to try and bite the girl in the alley, just to prove to himself that he is still the Big Bad in some way. Well, he no longer is the fully evil vampire that he was. Tabula Rasa showed that he now is more good than evil. Sure, the change is not complete and may never be but that is just the hallmark of adulthood. None of us is pure good or evil.

So Buffy is not totally human since Spike can hit her. Maybe she is less but maybe she is more. Being different isn't always bad. Maybe she did not come back "wrong", maybe she came back better.

As for the consentual foreplay and sex between him and Buffy. That was just a metaphor for all their inner conflict as well as their fighting their attraction for each other. The chemistry just is awesome between those two and Buffy did rough it up a little with Riley also. Buffy fights all the time, patrols every night, kills almost every night. Maybe fighting is just becoming a mode of expression for her. Maybe she cannot express what she feels for Spike in words. Maybe it gets her hot and bothered. No big deal. The attraction and outcome can be summarised in one word: PASSION. The interplay is not all that different from that of Rhett Butler (Clark Gable) and Scarlett O'Hara (Vivien Leigh) in Gone With The Wind or Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor in many movies. Passion, except for people with superphysical strength, stamina and regenerative abilities...

Passion is often not the wisest thing or the best counselour but it often rules our lives for the moment. I am glad that there is real passion in BTVS. I don't want it to become bland like that piece of trash Cleopatra 5000 or degenerate into simply worthless, boring tease like, yawn, Lexx (which was good only for the first 3 episodes).

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Wallpapers

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Dave V]

RE: Buffy coming back wrong (ie. Spike can hit her with no pain): I assumed that "cannot hurt humans" meant "can only hurt demons."

However, I discussed this with a friend. She opined that "it doesn't always have to be bad. I thought she was in heaven, not hell, so why wouldn't she have brought back some angel in her?"

Colour me thoughtful.

[april]

quote:

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Originally posted by judy:
I'll marry you only if we can promise to love, dishonor, and disobey one another in sickness and in health, til safeword do we part.

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ooh, i love it when you talk to me like that...

and you know, garfield may talk big with his red fonts and all, but i'm more woman than he'll ever be.

but anyway, you guys are making great points about the total absence of any plot whatsoever for xander this season. they really need to find something to do with him. maybe he could take on the lame gunmen? his jokes are better than theirs any day.
quote:

[Zahir]

Hmmmm...some thoughts.

First--Buffy/Spike. Methinks I've figured out precisely what it is that's drawing Buffy to this guy. He knows how to live! He loves passionately, fights with abandon, enjoys the moment, gets all worked up about even the little pleasures (the brilliant "onion thing" for example), commits himself totally--plus he's got the wisdom that kept him alive (or undead) for nearly two centuries (consider few vampires really last very long). For someone needing to reconnect to life again, he's got A-T-T-R-A-C-T-I-V-E written all over him. Nor do I think her joining with him for a time is a mistake. At least, it may not be. Permanent relationships are something else, but I'm talking about the here and now...

Now here's another thing I got to contemplating. Buffy refused to kill Angellus when she first had a chance--and so Jenny Calendar (among others) died horribly. Willow recklessly worked magic she didn't understand with someone she didn't know--so VampWillow killed Sandy, who in turn had who-knows-how-many victims before Riley staked her. Xander did the spell that brought Sweet, whose magic burned people to death. Giles dabbled in black magic, eventually killing all in his circle but him and Ethan Rane. Anya and Spike, both demons with lots of lives on their pelts.

So. Every single Scooby is a killer (there are other examples), either through action or irresponsiblility. All save Tara and Dawn (who's so young I'm not sure that counts).

Interesting, no? I've always said that redemption was a really major theme on this show...

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

[This message has been edited by Zahir (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Eyes Without A Face]

Xander = the one who eats bugs and catches the funny syphilis.

[Hugin]

Eyes Without a Face, please refrain from trying to classify people's reactions in terms of thier sexuality on this board.

You don't have to be a "heterosexual" or a "non-heterosexual" to react to Buffy/Spike or the (academic) attractiveness of a person in a particular way.

-len

[Wiccagrrl]

I think that's very possible. I also think we may have had some forshadowing of that. I'm trying to remember which ep (maybe Flooded?). Anyway, in one of the earlier eps this season, Buffy's patrolling, walking through the cemetery, and she goes by this statue. A statue of an angel. And it's filmed in such a way that for quite a bit we get this image of what looks like Buffy with angel's wings. Anyone else remember that shot?

[Eyes Without A Face]

Hugin,

Understood. I reworded what came across as an overgeneralisation. I'll be more careful with my wording in the future. I have no intend to offend.

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited November 21, 2001).]

[glenda the good witch]

Len;

totally in agreement though it may have sounded garbled at the time

My point was that IMO, S/B are not really doing the BDSM tango...they are just power exchanging or passionate sexing or rough sexing or whatever you want to call it. I think what the kink friendly people are saying is it's not abuse either..or if it is, it's mutual..both B and S are abusing on different levels.

I agree with you that it's not particularly sane in a level headed kind of non ulterior way...but then again is passion ever really sane?

JeAnne

[Web Warlock]

Ooo.. lots of fun ideas here!

Holy Crap! Zahir is right, everyone one is a killer, save for Tara and Dawn (I can't see Tara hurting a fly. I bet she is the one that scoops up the bugs in the house and puts them out the back door.) Unless you count that demon she axed.

B/S, not going there, but I have watched that scene 3 times now just to be sure I saw (and heard) what I thought I did.

Again with the parallel Buffy/Willow development. Usually it is Buffy that is in much deeper, things much worse. I think Will may have topped her on this one.

Here is my theory, not based on any spoilers, we all say it is going to get worse for Willow before it gets better. I have decided it is going to get much, much worse. Worse to level that someone is going to get awful close to dying.
Shall we start up a near-dead/dead pool? To quote Willow herself, "sometimes I'm callous and strange." (The Zeppo).

Here is another good question. Three outstanding episodes featuring Amber's talent; who can there anyone out there who can still bash Tara??? I don't get it.

Another question. When did Larry die? I am watching the reruns I am remember how I thought it was very cool for Joss to make the big stud football player openly gay and happy about it. Plus Larry always seemed to be a good guy at heart (alternate universe Larry was).

related: Was it just me or was Willow looking more like Evil Vampire Willow(c) this episode?

More parrallel develpoment notes; if I had a choice of Will's, Buffy's or Xander's life, then give me Xander's anyday, ex-demon, no super powers and all. I hope the gang can pull themselves together for their wedding.

On any level, you gotta be loving UPN about now. Would we have seen any of last night's ep on the WB?
Sorry I forgot corporate media mentallity. It is better to see a good looking young woman in a destructive relationship with an older man (at least Parker was close to her age) than two other people, who happen to be of the same gender, in a healthy, loving one.

Ok that is enough rambling for now.

Warlock

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Web Warlock
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Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
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--
"It could be witches, Some evil witches.
Which is ridiculous, 'Cause witches, they were persecuted Wicca good and love the earth
And women power and I'll be over here."

[Wiccagrrl]

Larry died during the big fight at the end of Grad Day 2. The big Mayor Snake killed him (Swiped him with his tail and sent him flying, if I remember right.) Sniff. Poor Larry.

And I'm kinda expecting something major to happen with X/A. No spoilers, just speculation. They've been way too happy way too long. Time for some angst. I'm thinking that the wedding may not go off as smoothly as hoped.

[This message has been edited by Wiccagrrl (edited November 21, 2001).]

[Roxton]

quote:

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Originally posted by Zahir:
Methinks I've figured out precisely what it is that's drawing Buffy to this guy. He knows how to live!

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I think your right Zahir, Buffy is trying to regain her passion for life and for all his faults Spike is someone who knows how to live life to it's fullest. If the relationship helps rekindle that passion then it can't be all bad.quote: