The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **fell** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:31 pm

I think the only answer to the dark/light magick question will have to come from the writers, but I don't recall any mention of "light" or "white" magick or a value judgement about magick per se. (Excluding "outsiders" like Snyder, of course.)

As for the Willow addiction metaphor, if you think of it as an addiction to power, and the irresponsible excercise of it, it makes more sense than equating it to alcohol.

quote:
Posted by Web Warlock
Course the only drug I can think of that does not have a physical addiction component is LSD. Willow's detox looked more like heroin to me.

There's a big difference between drugs like (true) narcotics, barbituates, and depressants (alcohol) and some stimulants (amphetamines and nicotine) that can produce physical addiction and the much larger group of substances that can be psychologically addicting but don't produce debilitating withdrawal symptoms and physical dependence, including caffeine, marijuana, cocaine, chocolate, ecstasy, lsd, sugar, etc. I raise this point because the term "addiction" is tossed around pretty loosely, often by the same people who ludicrously label pot a "narcotic." Addiction and habit are two completely different things. Appearances and propaganda aside, the truth is that someone who smokes cigarettes is a lot closer to a heroin addict than someone who smokes crack or pot is, in terms of physical dependence.

Edited to add, no value judgements implied. Peace.

[This message has been edited by fell (edited February 14, 2002).]quote:

by **Shaniezak** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:06 pm

Hmmmm . . .

You know, I think the whole concept of "metaphor" on BtVS is a lot more complex than we realize most of the time. It occurred to me (yes, on the drive home, when else?) that with all the complex psychology and character interaction on this show, why should the symbology and metaphors used be any different?

I kind of like to think that their metaphors are flexible--so you can't say that throughout the course of the series, a given concept will forever be symbolic of one specific thing. Magick, for example, has taken on so many different roles and aspects in the Buffyverse, whether in the hands of good characters, evil ones, or even incidental ones. In different instances it's been symbolic of love, of a need for self-worth, of ability used irresponsibly, and so on.

by **Hugin** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:51 pm

quote:
Originally posted by fell:
[B]There's a big difference between drugs like (true) narcotics, barbituates, and depressants (alcohol) and some stimulants (amphetamines and nicotine) that can produce physical addiction and the much larger group of substances that can be psychologically addicting but don't produce debilitating withdrawal symptoms and physical dependence, including caffeine, marijuana, cocaine, chocolate, ecstasy, lsd, sugar, etc.
(snippage for space)
Addiction and habit are two completely different things. Appearances and propaganda aside, the truth is that someone who smokes cigarettes is a lot closer to a heroin addict than someone who smokes crack or pot is, in terms of physical dependence.
[B]

Fell, this isn't really the place for it, this is an episode discussion thread, not a medical forum. But I wanted to comment on two of your points.

The most minor comment is, caffeine, or the cessation of the consumption thereof to be precise, does produce well documented physical withdrawal symptoms, most commonly headache, but also sometimes including lethargy, disruption of sleep cycles, or (rarely) nausea. No one is calling coffee a major scourge or anything, but the effects are there.

Secondly, and more seriously, I'm a bit taken aback by what seems to be a downplaying of the power of psychological addiction. Aside from the narrow point that the addictive affect they produce is psychological, putting cocaine/crack in the same list as caffiene, chocolate, and sugar is..startling. I don't think very many medical authorities would agree. As someone who came of age in a poor neighborhood that was exposed routinely to a whole variety of illegal substances, including heroin and marijuana, but then had crack sweep in and lay everything utterly to waste...

Physical addiction is bad. Psychological addiction to the most psychologically addicting substances is also very, very bad. There may be a medical distinction between them, but I'm not much inclined to regard a young mother trading blowjobs in an abandoned lot for her next hit as servicing a mere "habit" akin to cravings for chocolate.

Your post says some technically valid things about trees but misses, or dismisses, the rather large, suffering filled forest.

-lenquote:

by **Rosenberg** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:06 pm

This is probably an insignificant point, but I'm curious. When Tara arrived at the house, she was holding a present for Buffy. I don't remember seeing Buffy open it. Did I just miss it, or did Buffy not get around to opening it because of the arrival of the demon (bad timing on the demon's part). I'm just wondering what Tara might have given her.

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I'm very seldom naughty

by **geekgod** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:07 pm

i reallt enjoyed this episode. many aspects of it were so good.

there was willow's confession of hidden goods. dawn's tantrum about being alone and stealing. buffy trying to be strong around spike.

i espicially enjoyed the willow/ tara scenes they were so cute. and when tara stood up for willow i got all excited, did a little dance. well ok a mental dance but a dance all the same.

i dont know why anya was freaking out so bad. i understand the circumstances were rough but she jumped down willow's throat. i still love anya though, not so much with the blonde hair.

i also loved tara's interactions with spike. they were so funny. i also found it extremely funny that she was playing poker with the guys. anyways.

my girlfriend made the comment that in the last episode that they were both dressed cute. then in this episode she didn't really like what willow was wearing. so she came to the conclusion that they dress better when they're broken up. she found it funny and was about to draw a diagram but i had to stop her because the commercial break was almost over.

anyways i thought it was a great episode and there is a strong feeling that willow and tara might work things out. either way this episode was much better than some of the others this season.

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"i don't get wild, wild on me equals 'spaz'"

"i worship beelzebub! i do his bidding. do you see any goats around? no! because i sacrificed them! all bow before SATAN!"

by **Legs** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 8:28 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Rosenberg:
(...)When Tara arrived at the house, she was holding a present for Buffy. I don't remember seeing Buffy open it. Did I just miss it, or did Buffy not get around to opening it (...)

God, I'm glad someone else asked that same question! I was wondering about the present but I didn't know where to ask and I thought that making a new topic about it would make one of the moderators repost it in the right thread... Anyway, I think Buffy never really got to open Tara's. I remember she saw Willow's (what was she thinking?! LOL!!), Dawn's and Xander's. At this point that weird chick from work knocked.
It made me wonder what Tara bought her...

:-** & [ ]s
Legs

[This message has been edited by Legs (edited February 14, 2002).]quote:

by **wiltar4evr** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:29 pm

Here's something I don't think any one has brought up:
Did you notice that when our girls were mentioned in passing their names just naturally ended up together...twice in the episode. I thought that was so cool. Willow and Tara, Willow and Tara...it just flows so eloquently out of everybody's mouth. It just screamed foreshadowing. Hee, hee giddy now =)

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"Life and death, energy and peace...If I stopped today, it was still worth it. The mistakes that I have made, and would have unmade if I could. The pains that have burned me and scarred my soul...It was worth it, for having been allowed to walk where I've walked. Which was to hell on earth, heaven on earth, back again, into, under, far in between, through it, in it and above."

-from the journal of Gia Marie Carangi

[This message has been edited by wiltar4evr (edited February 15, 2002).]

by **Thanatopsis** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:37 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Dazey:

Is there a difference between "autumn" and "fall"?

Isn't one usually a girl's name and the other an action?

quote:

by **AutumnT** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:58 pm

quote:
Originally posted by Dazey:
Is there a difference between "autumn" and "fall"?

Uh yes. Yes there is. Fall. Who needs that.

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Autumn

I have the sudden urge to dedicate my productive cooperation.quote:

by **Scoobiedoo** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:22 am

quote:
Originally posted by Dazey:
Oh, and Zahir wrote: "Gotta point out that in fact there is no such thing as a synonym because no two words have precisely the same meaning."
That's not entirely true. It's a good general rule, but there are always exceptions. Is there a difference between "autumn" and "fall"?

Although i understand what u mean, that example is more to do with geography and stuff, y'know depending on whether you're in a country that speaks English English or American English. As an Australian, I have always referred to the season as Autumn, speaking English English, spelling organise with an S, not a Z and wrapping babies in nappies...not diapers.

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"FINE! I'll go to the pool and you can go to the museum of pools!"quote:

by **tommo** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:00 am

Hey! I'm literally a heroin addict. I smoke cigarettes. And I will surely burn in the fiery hells of addiction.

Well...it's Lent. Nuff said.

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Sweetie...I'm a fag.

by **Traggic Prose** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:44 am

A quick thought on Addiction=drugs

by **kitten scout** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:07 am

Wonderful episode. The girls where great! Amber gave Tara several new facial expressions. I just love her acting ability!

by **KittyKo** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:55 am

Hm, I could really start babling on how much I was excited to see Tara in this episode, but most people have done so already.
I'll just add my "I really liked this ep" rant to the book.

by **ATWindsor** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:29 am

quote:
Originally posted by Warduke:
[B]You know maybe Xander is being heavily criticized because he deserves it!
Like I said before, what he did was unforgivable, I really don’t care if he backed up Anya or not, the one time he does decide to stand with her, and this was it, to force Willow to do magic, to give in to her addiction, well with friends like that, Willow really doesn't need any enemies, now does she.

Although I am a Willow fan more than a Xander fan, I can very clerly see his point, a guy is dying, and willow shouldn't do anything just cause it might cause som trouble later, yes it could be a lot of trouble, but what is that compared to a guys life.

[This message has been edited by ATWindsor (edited February 15, 2002).]quote:

by **supermus** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:45 am

It was just a stab wound! Like they don't have a first aid kit in the house good enough to at least keep him from dying for 24 hours?

by **xita** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:15 am

If Xander was so concerned with saving a guy's life why was it that it was Willow and Tara (the selfish witches that were unwilling to do magic to save others) that were tending to his wound. I didn't see Xander very concerned about his friend.

by **Hugin** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:23 am

Folks, I think the scene is more about the conflicting tensions building up and the hard choices that had to be considered in and of themselves, not about who was specifically wrong or right.

I'm not sure how much I can fault Xander (who's been heaped with criticism for not supporting Anya in the past) for siding with is panicking soon-to-be wife. Tara sided with Willow, the woman she loves, advocating her point of view. Xander sided with Anya, the woman he supposedly loves, advocating for her point of view. I don't think that makes him so bad, even if (and I stress if) he was wrong. They don't know the nature of the spell or who cast it, they don't know what's happening outside of the house, there's an injured man upstairs, a hungry vampire downstairs, they're locked in with a killer demon that can pop out of nowhere...I can't blanketly say the "get out even if the cost is high" argument is comepletly unreasonable.

Remember, we all knew from the beginning of the addiction arc that there would be a circumstance where there would be a legitimate pressing need for Willow to use magic, and what would she do, etc. Making the scene an easy, clear "Oh, well using magic is the wrong thing to do and asking Willow is wrong", or alternatively "Using magic here is utterly necessary, Willow had no choice" saps the moment of its drama. I think it was good that it came down to tough conflicting priorities and judgement calls.

-len

by **Dr.G** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:28 am

Hmm if that man was so near death's door, why did he walk out in the end? Maybe 911 would have been better a better choice. Somehow I doubt he was X/A's main concern.

Anyway, one of my favourite moments of this ep was when Tara all but ripped the glass out of Buffy's hand and gulped it down. Precious.

by **xita** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:29 am

Yes len and I am disappointed that the pressure came from Xander, her friend since childhood. It shows a basic disrespect for her and I can't help but be mad at Xander cause I love willow and want her better. And len what do you mean by if Xander was wrong? Do you think that Xander had a right to demand Willow do magic?

I mean yes the choice was supposed to be tough but not because what was right and wrong was in doubt but because Willow was experiencing peer pressure. I worry that a more serious test would have to involve death but I am hoping this is the end of that. I think the show clearly sided with Willow and Tara on this one especially at the end when we learn that there was nothing Willow could have done.

The thing about the death of one man being more of a priority. I just think that it isn't that simple. Willow nearly killed dawn and she erased Tara's memories. It is dangerous for Willow to use magic. The consequences could endanger everyone's lives. She is very serious about this. So in the end yes Willow not using magic may be more important than the death of one man. It's not like they aren't going to try to save him by other means. It's just that they cannot rely on her anymore and she cannot use it.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited February 15, 2002).]

by **Dr.G** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:36 am

The very fact that they did not know who cast the spell and what it entailed might be a reason to hold back on using magic, not pressure Willow who is still recovering to do more. Tara's spell backfired (not her fault), Willow doing a big spell might just make it worse. But even if she could have gotten them out which is clear she could not, the motivation to pressure her seemed less than noble to me.

by **Warduke** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:43 am

Ok, I'd like to know why is it that Xander is always defended no matter what he does?

Xander caused all the trouble in OMWF, he got at least one person killed that we know of, yet what did he get for that…nothing, not even a slap on the wrists, now he asks Willow do dive back into her addiction and some people don’t see how wrong that is?…Oh it’s just Xander, he’s just immature, it’s his way, well BS, like the rest of the gang, he should be accountable for his actions, I really believe that if Xander killed someone in cold blood, some people would still defend him.

Reminds me a lot of Jonathan, everyone jumps on Warren’s back (rightly so) but oh no, not Jonathan, he’s a good guy, doesn’t matter if he freely wanted to become one of Buffy’s enemies or he was more than happy to put her life and other people’s lives in danger, and let’s not forget, he wanted a “turn” at Katrina…that’s rape. But wait, it’s just Jonathan, he just wanted to have fun, to be accepted…oh please!

[This message has been edited by Warduke (edited February 15, 2002).]

The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

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